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  #11  
Old 05-02-2015, 01:58 PM
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Dondilion Dondilion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Well, there's popular sovereignty.
Oh shit!

Fast track was invented to give that short shrift.
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2015, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
China is not a part of the deal, though they may be part of the cause. The participating countries are the United States, Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam.
That Taiwan is not among the participants might just be a clear indication as to who/what this alliance is meant to address.
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Last edited by nailer; 05-02-2015 at 10:47 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2015, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailer View Post
That Taiwan is not among the participants might just be a clear indication as to who/what this alliance is meant to address.
China tho not a signatory is a major producer and soon to be the number one market. So by being the destination of outsourced jobs and pirated technologies with little redress, any deal made seems to me pointless.

Is it the simple fact China would refuse to comply even if a agreement was reached with them? Or industry in the other countries trying to squeeze the last bit of profit before China's rise to the top?

Barney
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2015, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Well, there's popular sovereignty.
On the decline here, and non-existent in China.
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2015, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
On the decline here, and non-existent in China.
That would be...... ummm...... my point.

Hell, it's even an assault on national sovereignty.

TPP accelerates the rate of that loss, by a transfer of sovereignty to transnational corporations, at a time when we should be striving for the restoration of popular sovereignty.
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:34 AM
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Get real, popular sovereignty is essentially a lie due to how readily the masses can be manipulated.
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  #17  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by nailer View Post
Get real, popular sovereignty is essentially a lie due to how readily the masses can be manipulated.
I'm as real as death.

I don't think anyone would argue that popular sovereignty in the US is strong and intact but the very fact that the masses need to be manipulated is an indication that there's still some vestiges of it left, if only as a concept or as something to be paid lip service.

The point is that TPP would further erode both popular and national sovereignty in favor of corporate sovereignty.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2015, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
I'm as real as death.

I don't think anyone would argue that popular sovereignty in the US is strong and intact but the very fact that the masses need to be manipulated is an indication that there's still some vestiges of it left, if only as a concept or as something to be paid lip service.

The point is that TPP would further erode both popular and national sovereignty in favor of corporate sovereignty.
From day one sovereignty in the US has resided in Congress and the President, not the people. The partnering of political/national sovereignty and corporate interests is what American Fascism is all about. I don't think corporations are interested in ruling, i.e. exercising sovereignty. They want to do what they want to do no matter what in order to satiate their insatiable greed. Being able to buy the politicians meets their requirements.

Leadership manipulates followers. When a group finally has enough of being manipulated to their detriment they rebel/protest. The sovereign government uses force and/or appeasement to maintain it's power. If it fails, in the case of revolution, an new boss will arise. "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailer View Post
From day one sovereignty in the US has resided in Congress and the President, not the people. The partnering of political/national sovereignty and corporate interests is what American Fascism is all about. I don't think corporations are interested in ruling, i.e. exercising sovereignty. They want to do what they want to do no matter what in order to satiate their insatiable greed. Being able to buy the politicians meets their requirements.

Leadership manipulates followers. When a group finally has enough of being manipulated to their detriment they rebel/protest. The sovereign government uses force and/or appeasement to maintain it's power. If it fails, in the case of revolution, an new boss will arise. "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
The president and the legislators are nominally the representatives of the people, our servants by constitutional mandate. We are not theirs. You can argue the functional reality of this 'til the cows come home but popular sovereignty is at the root of our system of government.

And when a corporation has the right to sue a government because laws passed by that government interfere with the corporation's ability to make money in that country, that is a transfer of sovereignty from a nation and its people to that corporation. The compelling interests of a state and its people will then become subservient to the corporate bottom line.
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2015, 02:27 PM
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The TPP must be destroyed.

I think this goes in the sig.

See http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=5411 for the basics on how the TPP makes an unaccountable foreign 'tribunal' superior to US law. Corporations are given the ability to claim unlimited compensation from US taxpayers if government policy impacts their 'expected'* profits. This stick will give the corporations more leverage than ever to dictate regulatory policy in areas of corporate finance, labor law, environmental protections, job safety, and anything else.


*that is, estimated profits. And an 'estimate' can be anything. There is nothing more plastic than an estimate. The fix is built-in to these extra-constitutional 'tribunals.'
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