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05-16-2009, 08:45 AM
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhound
the difference between americans and terrorists is that they are willing to resort to immoral tactics and we, supposedly, are not. while anger may leave us inclined to use torture, if we do, we become no better than they are.
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As far as becoming no better than they are, since when are we better than they are? We believe differently than they do, but that doesn't make us better than they are.
These concepts all sound good, but when thousands of innocent victims' lives are at stake, in the immediate since, I would find it immoral to let them die for an ideal of "become no better than they are."
This whole torture issue is so much larger than the poetic ideals we swallow. We need to play first person with it... look your child in the eye and say, "I can't condone waterboarding that man who knows how to save your life because I would be no better than him. I love you. I'll miss you."
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05-16-2009, 10:20 AM
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Resident octogenarian
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,860
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Ha, I see mention of the 'tea party' now there was a scam. The settlers asked the homeland to send troops to fight the indians, then balked at paying the bill.
Mind you I do agree that the general they sent would have had difficulty locating his gluteous maximus with both hands and a flashlight.
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05-16-2009, 09:24 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: clarksdale, ms
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 142EBC
As far as becoming no better than they are, since when are we better than they are? We believe differently than they do, but that doesn't make us better than they are.
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so if i believed that satan was the supreme ruler, believed in ritualistic human sacrifice, and believed that rape, murder, and torture was good and just, you would be no better than i?
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05-16-2009, 09:28 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: clarksdale, ms
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 142EBC
This whole torture issue is so much larger than the poetic ideals we swallow. We need to play first person with it... look your child in the eye and say, "I can't condone waterboarding that man who knows how to save your life because I would be no better than him. I love you. I'll miss you."
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so you could look your child in the eye and say, "you are no better than the terrorists who flew those planes into the world trade center. it's okay to violate a treaty our country signed prohibiting torture, because your life is far more important than doing what is fair and just."?
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05-16-2009, 09:33 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: clarksdale, ms
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander
I do not see any 'innocents' amongst those savages....Some argue that this is not what the Q'uran teaches....Sorry, but they are capable of any vile act and the world would be a better place without them.
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dude.....
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05-17-2009, 09:51 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 2,460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhound
the difference between americans and terrorists is that they are willing to resort to immoral tactics and we, supposedly, are not. while anger may leave us inclined to use torture, if we do, we become no better than they are.
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So waterboarding a man, or 100 men, is the same thing as killing 3000 unarmed innocent people. I don't understand how the two are the same. I would much rather meet my maker knowing I waterboarded a terrorist, instead of meeting him knowing I killed 1000s of innocent men women and children, by burning them with jet fuel. This is the trouble with the PC liberal folks. They never want to talk about specific actions, but rather look at mystical broad "ideas". Let's have a discussion comparing the Taloban (spelling?) male, to the American family man. Then tell me again how we are no better than they are.
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05-17-2009, 10:51 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: clarksdale, ms
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twodogs
Let's have a discussion comparing the Taloban (spelling?) male, to the American family man. Then tell me again how we are no better than they are.
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i did not say that.
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05-17-2009, 10:52 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: clarksdale, ms
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twodogs
I would much rather meet my maker knowing I waterboarded a terrorist, instead of meeting him knowing I killed 1000s of innocent men women and children, by burning them with jet fuel.
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and i would rather meet him knowing i did neither.
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05-17-2009, 10:58 AM
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 11
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhound
Quoted from 142ECB-
As far as becoming no better than they are, since when are we better than they are? We believe differently than they do, but that doesn't make us better than they are.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhound
so if i believed that satan was the supreme ruler, believed in ritualistic human sacrifice, and believed that rape, murder, and torture was good and just, you would be no better than i?
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I guess the point I was trying to make is that the cliche about becoming no better than they are is over-used and under-evaluated. I, in no way, am OK with what they do. They are wrong in their methods of trying to make change. However, many of the same people that talk about how wrong torture is, will also call others arrogant for feeling "better" than those being tortured, and they'll turn around and use the cliche "we become no better than they are."
Just an observation on my part.
And I COULD look my child in the eye and say "you ARE better than someone who will kill thousands of innocents." To water-board someone to get life saving information from them, that they otherwise refuse to divulge, is fair and just.
BTW-
Great discussion here. I'm glad it's staying civil. This could really be a flash point conversation. It is well worth the energy of discussion and reflection.
Thanks all for your input and opinions.
Mike
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05-17-2009, 12:37 PM
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Resident octogenarian
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,860
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The problem with torture is that the victim will tell you whatever he thinks will make the torture stop if he/she knows nothing. On the other hand if they really do know something do you honestly think that some fanatic who thinks suicide bombing is a grand gesture is going to divulge anything?
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