The Copenhagen meeting

[doucanoe]

With respect to our economy, you're probable right for the time being but we're in decline, largely as a result of offshoring virtually all of our manufacturing and even a significant portion of our food production. Meanwhile other economies like China, India and Brazil are gaining on us. Taken together, the EU countries may already be on a par with us.



As for our poor - why the hell do you use quotes? - there are many countries where the social safety net does a far better job of supporting those at the bottom. The social democracies of Europe, like Denmark, Sweden and Norway, do a far better job than we do.

Bullshit. One thing these countries have done, is not produce and provide entitlement lifestyles to anywhere near the extent we have. Liberalism has done more to destroy generations of peoples in this country than capitalism by a long shot. We are so distant from Denmark, Sweden and Norway in this regard that reasonable comparisons cannot be made IMO.



Okay, argue it. Where are your facts and supporting data? As it happens, you'll be wrong but I'll wait to see what you come up with before I weigh in further.


I apply logic and reason. You go ahead and provide whatever you wish.



Child labor laws have always made provision for farm labor but not, interestingly for, say, a family-run machine shop. Of course, family farms are becoming pretty much a thing of the past. Living in Minnesota puts you in a position to know that.


Yes, you are correct. Not sure what your point is but you are correct.


In recent years state and local governments have if anything gotten smaller because it's starved for resources. Here in California we're even to the point of shutting down police departments in smaller cities and turning the police responsibility over to county sheriff's departments. Schools are closing, waste disposal operations are being privatized, public transportation is being cut back, etc.

I'm glad you brought that up. California is a wonderful example of what I am talking about

Under Bush federal government did grow while at the same time shedding itself as much as possible of the responsibility to govern or regulate. It instead became a haven for political cronies and utter hacks whose purpose was to cater to the wishes of the industries they were charged with regulating. Agency heads were drawn from the industries they were charged with regulating. Critical positions were awarded to people on the basis of their political connections or political ideology without the least regard for
competence.


And this is changing how?, Don't get me started.

RC

[HatchetJack]

Their arguments are thin Doucanoe. And the they have no real answers other
than rock throwing. There is no other way. We are a capitalist country and
always will be. Either they get on the train and find a seat or become hobos.

[Boreas]

As for our poor - why the hell do you use quotes? - there are many countries where the social safety net does a far better job of supporting those at the bottom. The social democracies of Europe, like Denmark, Sweden and Norway, do a far better job than we do.

Bullshit. One thing these countries have done, is not produce and provide entitlement lifestyles to anywhere near the extent we have. Liberalism has done more to destroy generations of peoples in this country than capitalism by a long shot. We are so distant from Denmark, Sweden and Norway in this regard that reasonable comparisons cannot be made IMO.

Yes, we are far distant from these countries but not in the way you suggest. They have things like free health care, free higher education, including a living allowance while attending, a minimum wage that shows ours for the joke it is, paid maternity and paternity leave, free day care.... You get the picture.

Frankly, in this regard, you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Okay, argue it. Where are your facts and supporting data? As it happens, you'll be wrong but I'll wait to see what you come up with before I weigh in further.

I apply logic and reason. You go ahead and provide whatever you wish.

What you do is make unsupported claims and assertions. It may seem logical in the sense that it could have happened that way but if you had knowledge instead of just "logic" on your side you'd know that what you said isn't true.

As for child labor laws, they weren't introduced because prosperity made them feasible. They were introduced in the Great Depression so that children would stop taking jobs away from the millions of unemployed adults. The legislation that accomplished this was The Fair Labor Standards Act, passed by a Democratic Congress during the Roosevelt Administration. That's logical too and it has the added virtue of being true.

Child labor laws have always made provision for farm labor but not, interestingly for, say, a family-run machine shop. Of course, family farms are becoming pretty much a thing of the past. Living in Minnesota puts you in a position to know that.

Yes, you are correct. Not sure what your point is but you are correct.

You brought up the agricultural exceptions to child labor laws. I was merely pointing out that they were a) a notable exception to child labor laws in general and b) becoming increasingly irrelevant.

In recent years state and local governments have if anything gotten smaller because it's starved for resources. Here in California we're even to the point of shutting down police departments in smaller cities and turning the police responsibility over to county sheriff's departments. Schools are closing, waste disposal operations are being privatized, public transportation is being cut back, etc.

I'm glad you brought that up. California is a wonderful example of what I am talking about

Care to explain? Our problems aren't part of the Great Liberal Conspiracy To Destroy America. They stem from our inability to raise needed revenues because of the legacy left us by past Republican Governors but mostly because it takes a 2/3 majority to pass any revenue producing legislation. Many of the Republicans in the legislature have taken an oath to block any legislative attempts to raise taxes. Even those who haven't taken the oath vote "no" in a bloc. The result is nothing passes and the state is broke.

Under Bush federal government did grow while at the same time shedding itself as much as possible of the responsibility to govern or regulate. It instead became a haven for political cronies and utter hacks whose purpose was to cater to the wishes of the industries they were charged with regulating. Agency heads were drawn from the industries they were charged with regulating. Critical positions were awarded to people on the basis of their political connections or political ideology without the least regard for competence.

And this is changing how?, Don't get me started.

Seems you're already started...... But anyway, this is changing because under Obama the serious qualified people are back in charge. For instance, the Secretary of Education is an educator, the Secretary of Energy is a physicist and a Nobel laureate, the Secretary of Veterans' Affairs is a retired general, the EPA Administrator is a chemical engineer and career agency employee for over 20 years, the HUD Secretary had the same job in NYC, the Ag. Secretary was a longtime governor of a farm state (Iowa).

Want me to go on?

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Their arguments are thin Doucanoe. And the they have no real answers other
than rock throwing. There is no other way. We are a capitalist country and
always will be. Either they get on the train and find a seat or become hobos.

Yeah, well see, Jack, we only have rocks 'cuz we've already voluntarily surrendered our guns to Obama. You're next!

Seriously, though, the problem isn't capitalism. Capitalism's fine. It's unregulated capitalism that causes problems.

John

[HatchetJack]

Unregulated imports are the bigger problem. We have to somehow even the
playing field. And I dont mean we should live in huts and eat rice. We should
restrict the amount of that cheap ass crap coming into the country. No
reason we cant make our own goods. More jobs would make the American
worker more valuable and better paid. As it stands now, employers are
overwhelmed with job applications and government mandates with low
demand for goods or services. I just can not see how more regulations and
taxes on businesses is going to solve anything. Put America back to work
first, then we can discuss the other.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Unregulated imports are the bigger problem. We have to somehow even the
playing field. And I dont mean we should live in huts and eat rice. We should
restrict the amount of that cheap ass crap coming into the country. No
reason we cant make our own goods. More jobs would make the American
worker more valuable and better paid. As it stands now, employers are
overwhelmed with job applications and government mandates with low
demand for goods or services. I just can not see how more regulations and
taxes on businesses is going to solve anything. Put America back to work
first, then we can discuss the other.

Unregulated imports are an aspect of unregulated capitalism and one of the worst. What we need to correct the problem is protective tariffs, just like all those countries have who keep dumping their cheap stuff on us.

John

[merrylander]

I wonder just how many of the posters here have actually been in any European countries for extended periods? I suspect the disparagement of their lifestyles and economies comes from the same sources as all of the so called failings of Canada's single Payer plan.

Having lived in Canada for 53 years and having travelled extensively in Europe I think I am in a good position to judge the quality of life in many of those countries, and frankly the jingoism of "only in America" is getting rather old. I did not see any poor people in The Netherlands, or Denmark, or Germany, even France and Britain seemed to have people who, while less well off, were adequately fed and housed.

Of course we could apply that phrase to the unfettered capitalism that nearly brought down the whole world economy. Odd though how Canada's banks did not need propping up, could it be that their mortgage system actually works? You do know who the TD in TDAmeritrade really is don't you?

When laws are truly designed to provide fair and equal treatment it is a win-win situation. When they are designed to enrich one group at the expense of all the others collapse is inevitable.

[noonereal]

Why the abrasive arrogant tone again?

This is not true. FDR and labor unions are primarily responsible for the fruits of capitalism to be somewhat shared with the masses. The success of capitalism has little to do with what you have because it would continue to rape the masses without a strong government.

I despise capitalism? You really are a gem. I agree that labor laws were necessitated by the abuses of capitalism.

It was never a necessity. Child labor was greed inspired.

You are about the most off putting poster I have ever encountered. I worked the farm every summer until I was 22. Then I tried to buy a farm but found it had already become out of reach and I would not be able to compete with the kids who had inherited one.

These were dramatic expanses of government in their day. Seems like a good idea no?

Yes, I am well aware of the prescription benefit given to the pharmaceutical lobby. I am also painfully aware of the military expenditures into a country that was classified as contained by out military for future oil.

Which are synonymous with big business.

Nothing wrong with less government as long as less government does not translate into a wider divide between rich and poor.

You know it seems to me you have adopted a belief and now twist everything to fit it. Read the replies in earnest and not in indignation. You may come away with a different impression.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Unregulated imports are the bigger problem. We have to somehow even the
playing field. And I dont mean we should live in huts and eat rice. We should
restrict the amount of that cheap ass crap coming into the country. No
reason we cant make our own goods. More jobs would make the American
worker more valuable and better paid. As it stands now, employers are
overwhelmed with job applications and government mandates with low
demand for goods or services. I just can not see how more regulations and
taxes on businesses is going to solve anything. Put America back to work
first, then we can discuss the other.

Ok let me understand this.
You are concerned about manufacturing jobs yet support the party that is synonymous with big business and big business is the one that is shutting down manufacturing here in order to source overseas, right?

What's wrong with this picture?

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Either they get on the train and find a seat or become hobos.

First off, unbridled capitalism is a terrible template for the masses. This is a fact.
Second, this is my country and I will work to make it a prosperous land for the masses in spite of the immoral propaganda that has taken good hard working folks and made them into cheerleaders for the ruling class.