Ukraine Heats Up

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I trust Russia and Russian intentions a lot more than I do those of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and several others of our allies. We are great fools for alienating them as we've been.

You have to understand what's motivating them right now. We see the encroachment of NATO and the EU into the Baltics, Georgia, Romania and Ukraine as hegemonic. Russia, and not just Putin, sees it as existential. They believe this is about crushing Russia and I think they may be right.

John

Nobody, including the US, has no intention of crushing Russia. OTOH, nobody is particularly content watching Russia crush its neighbors.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Nobody, including the US, has no intention of crushing Russia. OTOH, nobody is particularly content watching Russia crush its neighbors.

Russia did not crush or is crushing anyone

After watching McCain and Biden at Maidan Putin's actions are mild.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Nobody, including the US, has no intention of crushing Russia.

You're kidding, right? I don't mean militarily. The idea is to marginalize them economically, to pauperize them while confronting them with a phalanx of Western client states along their western frontier.

OTOH, nobody is particularly content watching Russia crush its neighbors.

Don't forget how this all began. The Western-backed coup government's first actions were directed toward making the Russian speaking east into second class citizens. They revoked previous legislation concerning language rights for Russian speakers and others, while threatening to ban all Russian media.

This prompted secessionist votes in Donetsk and Lugansk and the Crimean vote to return to Russia. The Maidan coup government responded militarily to the Donetsk and Lugansk votes but, owing to the presence of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, there wasn't a lot they could do about Crimea militarily so they attempted to dissolve Crimea's Regional Assembly.

Ukraine, with help from the West, brought this on themselves.

John

[Pio1980]

The extremists on both sides seem to behaving like those on the same neo-Nazi coin. A pox on both their houses.

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[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You're kidding, right? I don't mean militarily. The idea is to marginalize them economically, to pauperize them while confronting them with a phalanx of Western client states along their western frontier.

I don't think the West has any desire to pauperize Russia (Putin's already doing a fine job of that). I think the West would be just fine with a prosperous, democratic Russia that had no designs on its neighbors, designs which largely derive from Putin's effort to pump up nationalistic zeal to shift the focus away from a moribund economy.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

The extremists on both sides seem to behaving like those on the same neo-Nazi coin. A pox on both their houses.

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I'd have to say that neither side has behaved as you describe. For instance, nobody is rounding up civilians or massacring POWs or any of the things one associates with Nazis-at-war.

On the other hand, there are elements of the Pro-Ukrainian side who openly espouse Nazi ideals as to race, religion, gender identity, etc. These sides have been folded into the Ukrainian defense forces as volunteer units. The Azov Battalion comes to mind, fully integrated into the Ukrainian army. Also, the neo-Nazi Right Sector has formed a volunteer unit that's operating in the Donbass, largely outside the control of the coup government in Kiev.

As far as I'm aware, there is no analog to these groups on the separatist side.

John

[Dondilion]

How to impose a draft:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/18/...-russia-putin/

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

How to impose a draft:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/18/...-russia-putin/

The take-away message here is that even Ukrainian nationalists don't view this as their fight but instead one that has been imposed on them from outside.

John

[Pio1980]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I'd have to say that neither side has behaved as you describe. For instance, nobody is rounding up civilians or massacring POWs or any of the things one associates with Nazis-at-war.

On the other hand, there are elements of the Pro-Ukrainian side who openly espouse Nazi ideals as to race, religion, gender identity, etc. These sides have been folded into the Ukrainian defense forces as volunteer units. The Azov Battalion comes to mind, fully integrated into the Ukrainian army. Also, the neo-Nazi Right Sector has formed a volunteer unit that's operating in the Donbass, largely outside the control of the coup government in Kiev.

As far as I'm aware, there is no analog to these groups on the separatist side.

John

That would be Putin himself.

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[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

That would be Putin himself.

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I don't recall seeing Putin passing out cookies in the Maidan.

Victoria Nuland, Assistant US Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Maidan


Sen. John McCain, R. AZ in Maidan


John