Causes of Crime

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Sounds great on its face, but this really doesn't differ from the laws and policies in the US (though not necessarily the practices).

In the first instance, the hitch in your generality is "innocent person." I know of no American law or policy that specifically allows shooting innocent people. If you're referring to Ferguson, knocking off a convenience store, assaulting its owner, assaulting a cop while going for his gun and then charging a cop don't exactly qualify as innocent in the eyes of the law.

As for your second point, the word "unreasonable" force is already implicit within our law (i.e., only "reasonable" force is allowed). The hitch is determining ,after the fact, (as in Staten Island) whether the force was reasonable or not. The cops actions on the video seemed excessive to me, FWIW.

In a violent, well-armed society such as ours, British policing practices are unfortunately impossible. If our society becomes less violent and less well-armed, perhaps the British model is viable.

You miss the point.

It does not turn on whether the law here or anywhere supports shooting innocents and using unreasonable force. Of course it doesn't, or shouldn't.

But the trainer's point was to attempt to define law officer in the trainees' minds. It's not the uniform you wear, it's what you do. If you do wrong, you are not a law officer.

The hope was that the trainees would get it, as they took on the identity of law officer, and would govern their behavior accordingly.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

You miss the point.

It does not turn on whether the law here or anywhere supports shooting innocents and using unreasonable force. Of course it doesn't, or shouldn't.

But the trainer's point was to attempt to define law officer in the trainees' minds. It's not the uniform you wear, it's what you do. If you do wrong, you are not a law officer.

The hope was that the trainees would get it, as they took on the identity of law officer, and would govern their behavior accordingly.

I bet our training says much the same thing. The roots of this problem run way deeper than what a trainer says or doesn't say in a class full of dozing police recruits.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Sounds great on its face, but this really doesn't differ from the laws and policies in the US (though not necessarily the practices).

In the first instance, the hitch in your generality is "innocent person." I know of no American law or policy that specifically allows shooting innocent people. If you're referring to Ferguson, knocking off a convenience store, assaulting its owner, assaulting a cop while going for his gun and then charging a cop don't exactly qualify as innocent in the eyes of the law.

As for your second point, the word "unreasonable" force is already implicit within our law (i.e., only "reasonable" force is allowed). The hitch is determining ,after the fact, (as in Staten Island) whether the force was reasonable or not. The cops actions on the video seemed excessive to me, FWIW.

In a violent, well-armed society such as ours, British policing practices are unfortunately impossible. If our society becomes less violent and less well-armed, perhaps the British model is viable.

thank you for the considered reply

i think if someone needs to fire 12 shoots at an unarmed suspect they should not be a cop

imho, he used excessive force (Ferguson) and should have never been a cop in the first place

he should have lost his job and benefits, maybe a suspended sentence if the law permitted... it should

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by JJIII

Has 427 changed his name to Tom Joad?

He sounds like the definition of "Troll" to me lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bapk460RPOM

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I bet our training says much the same thing. The roots of this problem run way deeper than what a trainer says or doesn't say in a class full of dozing police recruits.

So our training is as good as anyone's, but the roots of this problem go deeper.

Therefore any implied criticism of our training is wrong, and it's also wrong to hold up this training as any kind of adequate answer to this 'deep rooted problem.'

Very good, noonereal's post was all wrong, but you've disposed of that criticism. Still you did bring up 'this problem' though. It might actually be constructive to identify things we agree are problems. Are you willing to say a little more about what you meant with regard to that?

[JJIII]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bapk460RPOM

I am so comfortable with consistency. Thanks TJ.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

So our training is as good as anyone's, but the roots of this problem go deeper.

Therefore any implied criticism of our training is wrong, and it's also wrong to hold up this training as any kind of adequate answer to this 'deep rooted problem.'

Very good, noonereal's post was all wrong, but you've disposed of that criticism. Still you did bring up 'this problem' though. It might actually be constructive to identify things we agree are problems. Are you willing to say a little more about what you meant with regard to that?

The list of contributing factors is huge, with plenty of blame to go around. Poverty, drugs, unemployment, guns, lack of opportunity, broken families, racism, overzealous cops, stupid laws, cultural differences ....

Need I go on?

My comments as to the training component is that it is likely less a contributing factor than any of those above, largely based upon my attendance (with eyes barely open) to shitloads of corporate training over a long career from EEO to sexual harassment to security to health & safety to ....

With regard to the Brit's point in Noone's post, I just think it's another example of a European applying their cultural paradigms and perspectives to our culture. They're more prone to do so when it comes to things that are better there, and not for things that aren't. Claiming cultural superiority is common on both sides of the Atlantic.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The list of contributing factors is huge, with plenty of blame to go around. Poverty, drugs, unemployment, guns, lack of opportunity, broken families, racism, overzealous cops, stupid laws, cultural differences ....

Need I go on?

My comments as to the training component is that it is likely less a contributing factor than any of those above, largely based upon my attendance (with eyes barely open) to shitloads of corporate training over a long career from EEO to sexual harassment to security to health & safety to ....

With regard to the Brit's point in Noone's post, I just think it's another example of a European applying their cultural paradigms and perspectives to our culture. They're more prone to do so when it comes to things that are better there, and not for things that aren't. Claiming cultural superiority is common on both sides of the Atlantic.

Back up. You're leaving me guessing at the basic thing I was asking about, while listing contributing factors to it.

When you said 'this problem,' what did you mean exactly?

BTW, just TRY to say awake when they darken the room and have you watch video lectures....

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Back up. You're leaving me guessing at the basic thing I was asking about, while listing contributing factors to it.

When you said 'this problem,' what did you mean exactly?

BTW, just TRY to say awake when they darken the room and have you watch video lectures....

Inner-city crime and the police's response to it. What problem were you talking about?

I'm pretty skeptical of the whole cottage industry that has grown up around boiler-plate corporate/government training programs. Technical training in one's career field is one thing, the cultural touchy-feeling stuff quite another.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Inner-city crime and the police's response to it. What problem were you talking about?

I'm pretty skeptical of the whole cottage industry that has grown up around boiler-plate corporate/government training programs. Technical training in one's career field is one thing, the cultural touchy-feeling stuff quite another.

OK, when you define the problem as broadly as that, of course you're going to sniff at someone touting training the police to have a better attitude. And I can't say that isn't the 'title' topic of this thread. But I think noonereal and I were focusing on 'shooting innocents and using unreasonable force' at this point.

But actually, you're right. The police are what the society they work in makes them. It's wrong to think all we need to do is 'fix the police.'

That isn't to say no fixing necessary, but too narrow a focus will fail. What made the situation what it is now will keep making it, if there are not more global changes.