The Copenhagen meeting

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Doesn't ANYONE have a problem with this power grab?

Pete

It's all part of the EPA's regulatory mandate. Blame Nixon!

John

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Now with the EPA deciding they have power over even more of the economy (EVERYTHING generates CO2) Copenhagen is basically a sidenote.

Doesn't ANYONE have a problem with this power grab?

Pete

I have a huge problem with it.

RC

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

I have a huge problem with it.

RC

As I said, it's well within the mandate of the EPA. In addition, the Supreme Court ruled that they had to regulate CO2 - in 2007 - during the Bush Administration - after they stacked the court with Roberts & Alito.

So, if you don't want to blame Nixon for establishing the EPA, blame Ford, Reagan, and Bush 41 for appointing all those activist judges.

John

[merrylander]

As long as they don't put a tax on the natural gas I generate I really don't care.

[Sandy G]

Hehehehehe...One of the by-products of this Gastric Bypass surgery I had is that now, I put out a LOT of, erm, "Gas"...I spose the EPA would like to stick a Catalytic Perverter up my keester...Go ahead, boys, let's see ya try !

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by Boreas

As I said, it's well within the mandate of the EPA. In addition, the Supreme Court ruled that they had to regulate CO2 - in 2007 - during the Bush Administration - after they stacked the court with Roberts & Alito.

So, if you don't want to blame Nixon for establishing the EPA, blame Ford, Reagan, and Bush 41 for appointing all those activist judges.

John

You put a lot of stock in painting things Red and Blue don't you. A lot of bad stuff has come from seemingly innocuous moves by all concerned. I guess for me, this just again illustrates the cancer that is government, and the fact that we are always better off having less of it.

RC

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

You put a lot of stock in painting things Red and Blue don't you.

An unavoidable consequence of having eyes to see what has happened since Reagan and the years to have once experienced what he destroyed. But, actually, what I'm saying is that even Republican presidents and their conservative judicial appointees have seen the wisdom and the necessity of strong environmental protections.

A lot of bad stuff has come from seemingly innocuous moves by all concerned. I guess for me, this just again illustrates the cancer that is government, and the fact that we are always better off having less of it.

So, you wouldn't want the EPA to regulate CO2. How about other types of emissions? Do you want the EPA to do anything to improve the quality of our air and water? Do you even want the EPA to exist? If you do, what would you have them do?

John

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

You put a lot of stock in painting things Red and Blue don't you. A lot of bad stuff has come from seemingly innocuous moves by all concerned. I guess for me, this just again illustrates the cancer that is government, and the fact that we are always better off having less of it.

RC

So if it were up to you we would not have OSHA, Child Labor Laws, the FDA.......
wE WOULD BE IN A world of hurt my friend if we had a capitalistic system and a government that did not stand up to it. As it is now we can't even get a universal health care bill passed and you want less government?

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by noonereal

So if it were up to you we would not have OSHA, Child Labor Laws, the FDA.......
wE WOULD BE IN A world of hurt my friend if we had a capitalistic system and a government that did not stand up to it. As it is now we can't even get a universal health care bill passed and you want less government?

Who are you kidding, capitalism has provided for your lifestyle and the most prosperous, robust economy in the world. Even our "poor" and down on their luck have it much better here than anywhere else.

I would even argue that child labor laws came about in part from the capitalism that you despise. Without the prosperity created by it, the need for child labor to put food on the table would have continued with or without laws governing child labor. It would have been a matter necessity. It doesn't compare to the past, but children still work farms all over the country. I know I did. That concept might be a little foreign to you because of location.

You can certainly have OSHA, FDA and other regulatory boards without the expanse of government we see today. Have you looked at how state and federal government has grown even in the last 10 years??. It grows because thats the nature of the beast. It's very self serving for the "industry" and careerist's it creates.

Yes, I want less government.

RC

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

Who are you kidding, capitalism has provided for your lifestyle and the most prosperous, robust economy in the world. Even our "poor" and down on their luck have it much better here than anywhere else.

With respect to our economy, you're probable right for the time being but we're in decline, largely as a result of offshoring virtually all of our manufacturing and even a significant portion of our food production. Meanwhile other economies like China, India and Brazil are gaining on us. Taken together, the EU countries may already be on a par with us.

As for our poor - why the hell do you use quotes? - there are many countries where the social safety net does a far better job of supporting those at the bottom. The social democracies of Europe, like Denmark, Sweden and Norway, do a far better job than we do.

I would even argue that child labor laws came about in part from the capitalism that you despise. Without the prosperity created by it, the need for child labor to put food on the table would have continued with or without laws governing child labor. It would have been a matter necessity.

Okay, argue it. Where are your facts and supporting data? As it happens, you'll be wrong but I'll wait to see what you come up with before I weigh in further.

It doesn't compare to the past, but children still work farms all over the country. I know I did. That concept might be a little foreign to you because of location.

Child labor laws have always made provision for farm labor but not, interestingly for, say, a family-run machine shop. Of course, family farms are becoming pretty much a thing of the past. Living in Minnesota puts you in a position to know that.

You can certainly have OSHA, FDA and other regulatory boards without the expanse of government we see today. Have you looked at how state and federal government has grown even in the last 10 years??. It grows because thats the nature of the beast. It's very self serving for the "industry" and careerist's it creates.

Yes, I want less government.

In recent years state and local governments have if anything gotten smaller because it's starved for resources. Here in California we're even to the point of shutting down police departments in smaller cities and turning the police responsibility over to county sheriff's departments. Schools are closing, waste disposal operations are being privatized, public transportation is being cut back, etc.

Under Bush federal government did grow while at the same time shedding itself as much as possible of the responsibility to govern or regulate. It instead became a haven for political cronies and utter hacks whose purpose was to cater to the wishes of the industries they were charged with regulating. Agency heads were drawn from the industries they were charged with regulating. Critical positions were awarded to people on the basis of their political connections or political ideology without the least regard for competence.

John