Grooming, indoctrination?

[RickeyM]

Originally Posted by whell

Love your use of pejorative terminology. It certainly invites conversation. LOL!

Regardless, this is my honest take on what's happening with this aspect of our culture.

I went through high school in the mid-late 1970s. Back then, calling another kid "gay" or a "fag" was considered a pretty nasty insult. No doubt those words were also stigmatizing to their intended targets.

However, we were kids. We were balancing the teenage concept of "knowing better" with the teenage desire to "fit in". Kids are less likely to call out another kid's behavior or choice of insults hurled at a "less popular" kid for fear of retribution from their peers.

Fast forward to today: My twin daughters are high school juniors. The way they tell it, being gay, or bi, or sis or whatever is like a personal brand that kids use. Some kids will say they're gay or bi to fit in with other kids, some use it to get attention, and some use the terms to accurately describe themselves and their preferences.

What changed? The culture changed, of course. What drove the change? Lots of different factors, some good and some not-so-good.

So, what's grooming? In the broadest use of the term in this context, it means to prepare or train a person for a particular purpose or activity. As some might use the term in this it means forming a relationship with (a child or young person) with the intention of getting them to do something they wouldn't likely aspire to do on their own.

Are there forces out there trying to "groom" kids to become gay or transgender? Specifically, is there a group or groups of persons specifically targetting straight kids or questioning kids with the goal of convincing them that they're gay or that they need "gender-affirming" care? No, I don't think so. I also think the use of "extreme" terminology like "grooming" can be self-defeating because it may misstate or overstate root causes.

I do think that efforts to "normalize" the LGBTQ+ community, while well-intended, may have some unintended consequences. There are "extremists" on both sides of any issue. Those "extremists" can alter the discussion and cloud the debate about what is appropriate what is not appropriate. When it comes to kids who are confused or seeking information about their identity, this just clouds the water even more.

Having legislation, like the bill currently pending in WA state, that would create a legal and physical barrier between kids and their parents while the kid is making life and body-altering decisions as a child is, to me just all kinds of wrong. This would be an example of the law of unintended consequences and taking things to extremes in full bloom.

You started out OK but the last two paragraphs would be what a law professor I once had would say are diverting from the question.

Originally Posted by barbara

I do not think any medical decision should be legislated. Medical decisions should be made by the patient in consultation with a doctor. In the case of minors who are the patient, it should be handled the way all medical procedures are handled when the patient is a minor.

Acknowledging this as a reply to the previous post it doesn't answer the question of what those slinging the terms grooming and indoctrinating around are afraid of. I wager at least in part is a fear of their younglings growing up to not see things in the world as they do, to share the same beliefs. Interestingly enough isn't that a natural progression? An example I give is when rock & roll music burst onto the American music scene.

[whell]

Originally Posted by RickeyM

You started out OK but the last two paragraphs would be what a law professor I once had would say are diverting from the question.


Acknowledging this as a reply to the previous post it doesn't answer the question of what those slinging the terms grooming and indoctrinating around are afraid of. I wager at least in part is a fear of their younglings growing up to not see things in the world as they do, to share the same beliefs. Interestingly enough isn't that a natural progression? An example I give is when rock & roll music burst onto the American music scene.

I don't think it's fear, necessarily. I think it's "pushback". In part, it's pushback against - as I probably didn't tie things together well enough in my prior post - some folks on the extremes of the movement that favor getting in between kids and their parents on the issue.

[GChief]

But these laws are to protect the kids from those extreme parents you mentioned and getting "between" is needed. I know a few that would flip the eff out in a bad way if their kid said "I am gay" or "I want to be a boy". Those kids and their providers need to be protected from family. Any medical procedures or drugs would still be reported to the parents unless it is determined the parents are a danger, determined by the court just like taking kids away from effed up parents.

[RickeyM]

Originally Posted by whell

I don't think it's fear, necessarily. I think it's "pushback". In part, it's pushback against - as I probably didn't tie things together well enough in my prior post - some folks on the extremes of the movement that favor getting in between kids and their parents on the issue.

What issue?

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by barbara

I do not think any medical decision should be legislated. Medical decisions should be made by the patient in consultation with a doctor. In the case of minors who are the patient, it should be handled the way all medical procedures are handled when the patient is a minor.

Absolutely, particularly when it come to mental health care that includes confidentiality protection for minors of the age of consent in each state.

And then we have the trump cult republican politicians and voters like whell who are playing scare tactics...suggesting that everybody's kid who has some gender-identity issues is going to run out and get the reassignment surgery behind the parent's back because of confidentiality laws. When in fact its exceedingly rare for anybody under the age of18 to actually get the surgery with the support of their parents, and even more rare for one to get it behind the shield of confidentiality law. Minors with gender identity issues arent going to counseling to get surgery, they're going to counseling to get gender-affirming support that they arent getting at home.

[GChief]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Absolutely, particularly when it come to mental health care that includes confidentiality protection for minors of the age of consent in each state.

And then we have the trump cult republican politicians and voters like whell who are playing scare tactics...suggesting that everybody's kid who has some gender-identity issues is going to run out and get the reassignment surgery behind the parent's back because of confidentiality laws. When in fact its exceedingly rare for anybody under the age of18 to actually get the surgery with the support of their parents, and even more rare for one to get it behind the shield of confidentiality law.

What's sad is the fact that its not tactics to most, they have drank the Kool-Aid and believe it to be true.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by GChief

What's sad is the fact that its not tactics to most, they have drank the Kool-Aid and believe it to be true.

Not buying it. Particularly among the seditionist republican party politicians who know the numbers on reassignment surgery for those under 18 good and goddamn well...how remarkably rare it is for anybody under the age of 18 to have a gender related medical procedure without parental approval. Playing scare tactic politics all fucking day long.

As far as republican voters go they vote for and against what they want...and what they want is no LGBTQ, no Jews, nobody of color, and nobody who ain't worshipping the baby Jesus. They want their white supremacist christian country back. Fuck 'em...its over...their candidate has won a single popular presidential vote out of the last eight.

[GChief]

Your still lumping everyone together in your extremists box... I am not buying that

I am talking the avg Joe/Jane that buys all the hype because it feeds their fears.

[RickeyM]

Is it a fear that having some drag queen reading their kid a story out of a book is going to make their poor little offspring want a sex change? Is it a fear that their kids aren't going to grow up hating (Ok, really disliking) the same things and people they do?

[donquixote99]

There's too many others around. Their tribe is threatened! That's what is all the way in back of it, I think.