How about some benzene in your water? Yellowstone river gets Keystoned.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Apparently energy independence has a cost.

Between 'benzene' and 'tar oil' I think Lehrer could write a pretty biting song.

Pete

What's funny is that environmentalists think we can get adequate energy without oil, gas, coal, nuclear, hydropower (if fish spawn there), and wind and solar farms (if they're located within view of their backyards).

It reminds of a joke made about Germany's Green Party back when I lived there. Roughly translated "Greens believe that they get their power directly from their electrical outlets (that their power is manufactured within their clean, environmentally friendly outlets without the need to be connected to the dirty power grid).

[piece-itpete]

It's crazy. And even if we could fart cheap effective solar panels civilization would still be dirty from earth's POV.

Pete

[CarlV]

Originally Posted by bobabode

If anyone thinks this bituminous gunk is the same as the sweet crude being pulled from the ground elsewhere? I have some Tar Pits out here in Los Angeles you might be interested in buying...

They have to cut this sludge with a lot of benzene to make it flow through the pipeline. It isn't the pipeline that's such a bad thing. It's the route over the aquifer and the added chemical hazard of so much benzene flowing through it.

That's it. Well that and the fact that there are no taxes on anything shipped out of Port Arthur, Texas. The USA who gives tax credits to build this and gets nothing in return will have to pay for any cleanups from pipeline failure.

OTOH, Marin Clean Energy (MCE) who I buy from now can supply 100% clean energy cheaper than Pacific Gas and Electric's current mix of "dirty and clean".

The bill for a typical PG&E residential customer using 500 kilowatt hours of electricity per month increased about 6 percent — an additional cost of a little more than $5 per month.

A typical residential customer of Marin Clean Energy pays $86.92 per month, $3.06 less than a similar PG&E customer, according to figures supplied by Marin Clean Energy and acknowledged by PG&E. An average commercial customer of MCE, using 1,550 kilowatt hours of electricity per month, pays $259.43, which is $6.46 less than a similar PG&E customer.

MCE customers also have the option of getting electricity supplied from 100 percent renewable sources by paying an extra penny per kilowatt hour, which would amount to $5 per month for the typical residential customer.

"Marin Clean Energy rates were lower than PG&E in 2014, and we ended up saving customers more than $5.9 million," said Jamie Tuckey, an MCE spokeswoman.

http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_...ing-pg-e-price


Carl

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's funny is that environmentalists think we can get adequate energy without oil, gas, coal, nuclear, hydropower (if fish spawn there), and wind and solar farms (if they're located within view of their backyards).

It reminds of a joke made about Germany's Green Party back when I lived there. Roughly translated "Greens believe that they get their power directly from their electrical outlets (that their power is manufactured within their clean, environmentally friendly outlets without the need to be connected to the dirty power grid).

Nice strawman you've built there.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

It's crazy. And even if we could fart cheap effective solar panels civilization would still be dirty from earth's POV.

Pete

Right. So your solution is that we should do nothing...got it.

[bobabode]

There's sand in this 'tar sands' gunk, right? Anyone care to hazard a guess what the scouring rate is within these pipelines?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Nice strawman you've built there.

I happen to have a greater confidence in science and technology than I do in whiny environmentalists fulling understanding and weighing the available options commensurate with our energy needs. YMMV.

The whole Keystone pipeline debate has become an article of faith for both sides, neither of which are correct IMO. It will neither destroy the earth and the aquifer, nor will it solve our employment problems. It has simply a symbolic issue for both sides to champion.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I happy to have a greater confidence in science and technology than I do in whiny environmentalists fulling understanding and weighing the available options commensurate with our energy needs. YMMV.

The whole Keystone pipeline debate has become an article of faith for both sides, neither of which are correct IMO. It will neither destroy the earth and the aquifer, nor will it solve our employment problems. It has simply a symbolic issue for both sides to champion.

Gotta love how the proponents of Keystone have flip flopped on eminent domain as a conservative article of faith.

Without straw, adobe bricks suck...

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Gotta love how the proponents of Keystone have flip flopped on eminent domain as a conservative article of faith.

Without straw, adobe bricks suck...

I tend to side with whiny environmentalists.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I happen to have a greater confidence in science and technology than I do in whiny environmentalists fulling understanding and weighing the available options commensurate with our energy needs. YMMV.

The whole Keystone pipeline debate has become an article of faith for both sides, neither of which are correct IMO. It will neither destroy the earth and the aquifer, nor will it solve our employment problems. It has simply a symbolic issue for both sides to champion.

We'd be using far less fossil fuel to generate electricity today if TMI hadn't been used to further a cause. We humans tend to go ape all too often.