Are Hybrids the savior of the auto industry

[SAE2922]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I like the idea of Hydrogen powered cars but its a long way off not to mention whose footing the bill for converting gas stations to hydrogen ?

Before the masses could seriously consider one of these cars Hydrogen stations will need to be everywhere.

Originally Posted by Combwork

Not sure about that. In the U.K. LPG was introduced with a much lower taxation rate than petrol or diesel. Result was a number of fleet operators plus a few privates paid the price and had their cars converted. This created demand; the result was fuel stations started to add LPG pumps. It kind of died the death when the government raised the tax level on LPG but the principle holds. Make the cars, keep the taxation rate low, go for mass production and the market will supply the fuel.

Combwork,

I see that you are talking about LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas - "Propane") in the U.K. The building of a nationwide array of hydrogen fuel stations in the United States would have to be straight from the beginning. Converting a gasoline fuel station to handle hydrogen would entail a complete top-to-bottom rebuild of the fuel handling equipment. Not cheap by any means.

In sheer number of square miles, the United States is almost as big as the whole of Europe ( ~ 3.8 million to ~ 3.9 million square miles, respectively) with less that half the population (~ 306 million to ~ 730 million).

Nationwide, there is only a literal handful of these, "Gee, look as us, we have a hydrogen fuel station in our metropolitan area and we sure are GREEN", fueling stations. Typically, the stations are found in massively populated areas such as Los Angeles, etc.

Yawn. So what. The detractors will say that we (America), as a GREEN nation, must begin somewhere. I'm just guessing that only a few dozen or so nation-wide hydrogen stations are in service today for the masses. With America's low cost gas at the pump, the puny, dangerous hybrid put-put cars that hardly anybody wants to purchase at such high prices (think the be-all-to-end-all Chevrolet Volt electric hybrid (whatever) at a projected cost of at least $40,000), and the oil companies will not fund an esoteric Hydrogen Manhattan Project to supply, deliver and sell the newly required GREEN fuel on a nationwide basis.

Run gasoline up to the $6-8 a gallon range (or higher) at the pump to stay and not fluctuate downward, then America's car buying public may slowly turn a fond eye to the gasoline hybrids. Hybrid battery technology still needs to improve and bring the replacement cost down.

With our present refining infrastructure, going with a clean-burning diesel technology may be the way to go instead of gas-hybrid technology. Turbo-charging small displacement diesel engines can easily approach the 40-50 mpg range (or better) TODAY. If you are going to have to go to a small crackerbox-size car due to ultra-high fuel prices, why not leverage the present fuel station infrastructure and go diesel. You can approach hybrid miles per gallon without worrying about finding a plug-in electrical outlet on the road away from home to recharge or panic at the thought of paying ~$6-8,000 for a replacement set of new batteries in a few years.

Besides, hydrogen typically consumes more energy to produce than the energy that is derived from it. When we ramp up the massive production machinery to create hydrogen to fuel several million "riding lawn mowers with windshields", where will we get the energy to generate the much needed extra electricity? I sure don't know.

The government won't let domestic energy companies dig, drill or prospect where the energy can be found. God forbid that a snail darter, yellow-cheeked warbler, spotted owl or a gimp-legged slumbago worm is disturbed. "Frack no, don't drill there, 44 sea otters went to crustacean heaven in the oil spill of '69"! Just where will we get the energy?

There is absolutely no way that the American oil companies are going to freely and easily put up the billions of U.S.A. dollars to fund the massive infrastructure restructuring that would be required to service an American nationwide fleet of hydrogen-powered "golf carts with roll-up windows and air conditioning".

[Combwork]

[QUOTE=SAE2922;1012]Combwork,

I see that you are talking about LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas - "Propane") in the U.K. The building of a nationwide array of hydrogen fuel stations in the United States would have to be straight from the beginning. Converting a gasoline fuel station to handle hydrogen would entail a complete top-to-bottom rebuild of the fuel handling equipment. Not cheap by any means.

What some of the fuel stations have done here is add a single LPG pump to the existing petrol and diesel pumps. LPG is still pressurized, but nothing like as much as liquid hydrogen.

With our present refining infrastructure, going with a clean-burning diesel technology may be the way to go instead of gas-hybrid technology. Turbo-charging small displacement diesel engines can easily approach the 40-50 mpg range (or better) TODAY.

We're ahead of you on that one; a good example is the Fiat Multipla. 6 seat, aircon, all the bells and whistles. Urban cycle 50 mpg, long distance 55 mpg from a 1.9 litre turbocharged diesel. Even a 15 year old 2.5 litre Citroen turbo Diesel Estate gets around 40 mpg. The Citroen BX (1.7 turbo diesel) is quite happy to run on straight vegetable oil; really does bring driving costs down.

Oh well, maybe I'll get my license back but I'll not hold my breath........

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by SAE2922

Combwork,

<snip>

Besides, hydrogen typically consumes more energy to produce than the energy that is derived from it. When we ramp up the massive production machinery to create hydrogen to fuel several million "riding lawn mowers with windshields", where will we get the energy to generate the much needed extra electricity? I sure don't know.

The government won't let domestic energy companies dig, drill or prospect where the energy can be found. God forbid that a snail darter, yellow-cheeked warbler, spotted owl or a gimp-legged slumbago worm is disturbed. "Frack no, don't drill there, 44 sea otters went to crustacean heaven in the oil spill of '69"! Just where will we get the energy?

There is absolutely no way that the American oil companies are going to freely and easily put up the billions of U.S.A. dollars to fund the massive infrastructure restructuring that would be required to service an American nationwide fleet of hydrogen-powered "golf carts with roll-up windows and air conditioning".

Perhaps if the domestic oil companies were to drill in all the leases they presently hold they could avoid the National Parks? The numbers for these unused leases are rather large.

As to the golf cart comparison I guess you have never seen a hydrogen powered vehicle. BTW we do have a golf cart, great way to get around the property, especially considering the 50 foot difference in levels.

[Combwork]

Quote Merrylander:

"Besides, hydrogen typically consumes more energy to produce than the energy that is derived from it. When we ramp up the massive production machinery to create hydrogen to fuel several million "riding lawn mowers with windshields", where will we get the energy to generate the much needed extra electricity? I sure don't know"

As I understand it, power stations either have to run 24/7 or not at all. Could the 'surplus' electricity generated at night be used for large scale electrolysis; hydrogen from water? That assumes you want hydrogen; could a gas powered car be adapted to run on hydrogen? The great advantage of LPG is that most petrol engines can be adapted fairly easily and it's a switchable adaptation; you carry petrol and LPG, using whatever suits. This gets round the problem of LPG not always being available.

Quote Grumpy:

The US is well behind the UK in the diesel department but you have to remember your comparing a US gal to the rest of the world.

That's true; I'd forgotten that. I think it's a 7 to 8 ratio. Using the British pint, US gallon contains 7 pints; UK contains 8. Going back to the point made by SA2922, if you're talking about 50+mpg off a US gallon in a standard size car, you're way ahead of us.