"A stunning victory."

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Irani religious zealots hate America because our religious zealots and our idiot government support Israel.

Dave

We could go around and around with all the points in your post and end up nowhere. But the comment above was of some interest to me and this popped immediately into my head...

So do you make decisions on who are gonna be your friends based on the crazy guy down on the corner threatening to throw a brick through your picture window if you pick somebody he doesn't like?

[Zeke]

I make decisions on who my friends are based in whether they act like friends or entitled freeloaders.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Iran hates Israel.

True, or at least the Iranian regime "hates" the Israeli regime (and vice versa). I'm not so sure you can make similar claims for the populations of either country.

Part of the problem is that both countries want to be the regional hegemon. Israel's nuclear capability and the military support they receive from us make that a near reality. If Iran were to develop a nuclear weapon, that would flip things on their head.

This is also why the Saudis don't like Iran very much. They don't like the idea of a Shia nation being the most powerful in the region.

Israel knows they are surrounded by insane people who will probably side with Iran if the shit hits the fan.

I don't think so. The Sunni/Shia conflict, particularly the Salafi radicals on the Sunni side, would make such an alliance against Israel very unlikely. Based on what we're seeing these days, they'd rather kill each other.

Irani religious zealots hate America because our religious zealots and our idiot government support Israel.

That doesn't help but it's really a side issue. The regime hates us because of our direct involvement in Iran, particularly our engineering the coup which overthrew a popularly elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and installing a tyrant, Reza Pahlavi, in his place. Pahlavi (the Shah) conducted a US-supported reign of terror for nearly a quarter century until he was deposed in the Islamic Revolution.

John

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by Boreas

That doesn't help but it's really a side issue. The regime hates us because of our direct involvement in Iran, particularly our engineering the coup which overthrew a popularly elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and installing a tyrant, Reza Pahlavi, in his place. Pahlavi (the Shah) conducted a US-supported reign of terror for nearly a quarter century until he was deposed in the Islamic Revolution.

John

Ought to be shouted and repeated continuously.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Ought to be shouted and repeated continuously.

Perhaps starting reading here would help dispell many misconceptions as well. The world did not suddenly begin in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...ration_of_1917

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Boreas

The regime hates us because of our direct involvement in Iran, particularly our engineering the coup which overthrew a popularly elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and installing a tyrant, Reza Pahlavi, in his place. Pahlavi (the Shah) conducted a US-supported reign of terror for nearly a quarter century until he was deposed in the Islamic Revolution.

I should add that Mosaddegh was secular and a "small d" democrat. His "crime" was wanting to nationalize Iran's oil.

So, see where our interference got us? Iran is now a totalitarian theocracy and their oil resources have been nationalized. Brilliant strategy!

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Perhaps starting reading here would help dispell many misconceptions as well. The world did not suddenly begin in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...ration_of_1917

Oh, it's much older than that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

John

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Perhaps starting reading here would help dispell many misconceptions as well. The world did not suddenly begin in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...ration_of_1917

Y'know Rob, everybody gets all upset when one starts talking about Jews instead of Israel. But it's not able to be separated. Israel is Jews. And I believe the story of Israel began with the earliest instances of anti-Semitism in recorded history.

The first clear examples of anti-Jewish sentiment can be traced back to Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE. Alexandria was home to the largest Jewish community in the world and the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, was produced there. Manetho, an Egyptian priest and historian of that time, wrote scathingly of the Jews and his themes are repeated in the works of Chaeremon, Lysimachus, Poseidonius, Apollonius Molon, and in Apion and Tacitus. One of the earliest anti-Jewish edicts, promulgated by Antiochus Epiphanes in about 170–167 BCE, sparked a revolt of the Maccabees in Judea.

The ancient Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria describes an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died. The violence in Alexandria may have been caused by the Jews being portrayed as misanthropes. Tcherikover argues that the reason for hatred of Jews in the Hellenistic period was their separateness in the Greek cities, the poleis. Bohak has argued, however, that early animosity against the Jews cannot be regarded as being anti-Judaic or antisemitic unless it arose from attitudes that were held against the Jews alone, and that many Greeks showed animosity toward any group they regarded as barbarians.

Statements exhibiting prejudice against Jews and their religion can be found in the works of many pagan Greek and Roman writers. Edward Flannery writes that it was the Jews' refusal to accept Greek religious and social standards that marked them out. Hecataeus of Abdera, a Greek historian of the early third century BCE, wrote that Moses "in remembrance of the exile of his people, instituted for them a misanthropic and inhospitable way of life." Manetho, an Egyptian historian, wrote that the Jews were expelled Egyptian lepers who had been taught by Moses "not to adore the gods." The same themes appeared in the works of Chaeremon, Lysimachus, Poseidonius, Apollonius Molon, and in Apion and Tacitus. Agatharchides of Cnidus wrote about the "ridiculous practices" of the Jews and of the "absurdity of their Law," and how Ptolemy Lagus was able to invade Jerusalem in 320 BC because its inhabitants were observing the Sabbath. Edward Flannery describes antisemitism in ancient times as essentially "cultural, taking the shape of a national xenophobia played out in political settings."

Jews have always been and will always be outsiders. You'd think the rest of the world would be happy to have them insulated in their little chunk of dirt in the middle east and out of everybody's hair. But what fun is life without a decent, established, solid universal scapegoat.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

As far as I've been able to determine there has not been a peep outta the usual suspects around here about the recent elections in Israel. Reckon what that's all about?

Can't speak for the others, but as for me, I'm disappointed. I wanted the Dude to go down.

But hey.

It ain't my top priority.

My top priority is for the Republicans here at home to go down.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Oh, it's much older than that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

John

And we can go to the British/French games playing to get the Arabs to fight for them during WW I and Lawrence of Arabia and on and on. So why blame it all on the Jews? It was the League of Nations that settled them in Palestine. If history is correct it was the Arabs that started the fighting by slaughtering a group of settlers. Then the Hatfield McCoy thing got started.

They can get along with each other I know from personal experience. While I was lecturing in Herzilya my hosts took me to dinner ay a Palestinian restaurant where it was obvious they were well know by the owner and good friends.

As long as Hamas insists that there is no right for the state to exist discussion is impossible. They plead poverty yet can build million dollar tunnels from Gaza into Israel. With their penchant for suicide bombings Florence did not sleep well until I called her from JFK to tell her I was back. The funny thing us that the people at the lecture treated me with more respect and kindness that I was ever shown here.

Having lived through several wars since WW II I have never observed that blame is always one sided.