Finland experiment: Basic income for the unemployed.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Oerets

The problem here who decides the breeding pairs?

If society would just educate the use of birth control and quit the war on sex for fun. It is going to happen, get over it and have a plan.



Barney

If you drill down the 'war on sex for fun' was really rules with the purpose of keeping the more valuable females from being impregnated by the wrong guys. Rules for guys were always lax, because they didn't get pregnant.

The rules are totally obsolete, fertility control is now accomplished with pills, and it doesn't actually matter so much if girls go through a party-a-lot phase. But attitudes, among the more conservative sorts, don't adjust quickly.

Those who are concerned by declining birthrates in their favorite hereditary identity group need to work to end birth control available on demand to females. Have to go back to the days when married women needed medical grounds and three doctors had to sign off on it. Otherwise, forget it. Nothing else will work.

[Oerets]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

This is a good start. Automation and robotics are replacing the need for workers more and more with each passing year. As a result we have a glut of potential labor which is marginalizing more and more of our population.

We need to get used to he concept of paying people not to work to prevent labor surpluses just as we have paid farmers not to grow certain crops to prevent commodity surpluses.

This we agree on!

I have been thinking a tax on automation and robotics would be a start. The tax to be used for training and support of workers affected.



Barney

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

This is a good start. Automation and robotics are replacing the need for workers more and more with each passing year. As a result we have a glut of potential labor which is marginalizing more and more of our population.

We need to get used to he concept of paying people not to work to prevent labor surpluses just as we have paid farmers not to grow certain crops to prevent commodity surpluses.

Except robots don't buy cars or homes or anything else for that matter.

[Dondilion]

Damn! Gas!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ountry=Finland

[CarlV]

Originally Posted by barbara

I wonder what it costs to live there. Is that enough money for food and shelter?

Last time I was on a black metal cd hunt, I found it in Finland on a site and with their VAT, cd's are 40.00 USD. I passed. Sweden isn't too bad, pretty fair actually.


Carl

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by CarlV

Last time I was on a black metal cd hunt, I found it in Finland on a site and with their VAT, cd's are 40.00 USD. I passed. Sweden isn't too bad, pretty fair actually.


Carl

What's better?

Free top quality health care and college?

Or cheap CD's?

https://qz.com/103115/the-secret-to-...ly-everything/

[donquixote99]

Most women want to have children, but 'later.' The procrastination results in fewer or no children in enough cases that the birthrate falls below replacement.

Another of those situations where individual interests and the 'welfare of the group' don't line up. If you think the 'welfare of the group' is real enough to limit some freedom for some people, a lot, you favor getting unprogressive here.

I think 'the welfare of the group' looms larger in people's minds when the group is biologically threatened, and smaller when it isn't. Some people are a lot more sensitive on this point than others. You are correct, progressive cultures that promote peace and prosperity are bad for group-centric ethics.

This leads to the authoritarian notion that 'war is the health of the state.' But I'd amend that to 'preparation for war is the health of the state.' Actual war in modern times is so destructive that it's not healthy for anyone or anything. So the tendency of authoritarians to seek war for 'the glory of the group' tends to be the worst thing of all for the group.

[donquixote99]

Maybe instead of the authoritarian 'stick' of outlawing birth control, progressive 'carrots' would do the trick. Fight the procrastination with incentives. Big incentives for mothers and kids, for kids born before mother is 25, perhaps. All one needs do, I think, is nudge the birthrate up a few 10ths of a percent....

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Maybe instead of the authoritarian 'stick' of outlawing birth control, progressive 'carrots' would do the trick. Fight the procrastination with incentives. Big incentives for mothers and kids, for kids born before mother is 25, perhaps. All one needs do, I think, is nudge the birthrate up a few 10ths of a percent....

Not only carrots: Ideology is needed to de-energize the thought that moving on up is overwhelmingly more important than children.

An intrinsic love of children needs to exist and the ever lessening of the unease/queasiness re abortion works against such love.

Probably in the future an increase in robots and a useful guaranteed basic salary will make the coming of children less threatening.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Not only carrots: Ideology is needed to de-energize the thought that moving on up is overwhelmingly more important than children.

An intrinsic love of children needs to exist and the ever lessening of the unease/queasiness re abortion works against such love.

Probably in the future an increase in robots and a useful guaranteed basic salary will make the coming of children less threatening.

Most people have a much greater intrinsic love of children once they are here, than they do when they are just a possibility. Before the pill came into existence, the female sex drive assured the move from possibility to actuality happened often enough.

I'd focus much more on the pill than on abortion as the change that has made the big difference here. Much bigger impact on birthrate, I think.

Income security ought to be good for birthrate, I agree. (Or bad, depending on one's attitude towards birthrate. There are those who like the idea of population decrease, don't forget.)