Political Forums  

Go Back   Political Forums > Politics

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:17 AM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
Bitching doesn't bother me. It is people who vote believing that somehow the successful people have taken something from them and they deserve a share of it. Redistribution basically.

Difference between me and most on this forum is that I believe that what I don't have is my own damn fault.

Lot of things I should have done. Actually worked in school and made good grades, gone to med school, gone in to construction business with my father, stuck with tobacco farming.

Coulda, shoulda, and all that.

But, it's on me.

Poor old BlueStreak thinks he is supposed to work in some plant and make big money.

Good luck in the contest.
And likewise you believe what you do have is all down to your excellent merit and determined efforts.

No room for happenstance, for being in 'right place at the right time,' or for benefiting from certain aspects of 'the system,' to include institutionalized greed as mentioned above.

Rather than contemplate any possible cracks in your moral position, you will now insult 'most on this forum' again. Avoids possible moderator sanction for slapping anyone in particular. Check.
__________________
If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:18 AM
Pio1980's Avatar
Pio1980 Pio1980 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,049
This is shitty business model for quality and ethics, as has been proved in practice.
__________________
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:33 AM
Rajoo's Avatar
Rajoo Rajoo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sierras
Posts: 14,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
Bitching doesn't bother me. It is people who vote believing that somehow the successful people have taken something from them and they deserve a share of it. Redistribution basically.

Difference between me and most on this forum is that I believe that what I don't have is my own damn fault.

Lot of things I should have done. Actually worked in school and made good grades, gone to med school, gone in to construction business with my father, stuck with tobacco farming.

Coulda, shoulda, and all that.

But, it's on me.

Poor old BlueStreak thinks he is supposed to work in some plant and make big money.

Good luck in the contest.
I disagree, very few are able to pursue their dreams. Opportunity and education are the two most valuable ingredients and not every one has both working for them at the same time.

Most of all luck has to be on one's side to succeed as any successful business person will attest to. When anyone complements me I always respond with "I am so fortunate..................".
__________________
White Christian Nationalism:
Freedom for us, order for everyone else, and violence for those who transgress.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-19-2017, 04:40 PM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
And likewise you believe what you do have is all down to your excellent merit and determined efforts.

No room for happenstance, for being in 'right place at the right time,' or for benefiting from certain aspects of 'the system,' to include institutionalized greed as mentioned above.

Rather than contemplate any possible cracks in your moral position, you will now insult 'most on this forum' again. Avoids possible moderator sanction for slapping anyone in particular. Check.
Yeah, like I am really worried about moderator sanction on an internet forum. How many are there, a few hundred thousand maybe.

As far as most on this forum, it is what I read.

With few exceptions you want the government to do something for you.

Say you don't make your own luck every time is it the governments job to fix it for you ?

Who determines if it is luck or poor planning, bad decisions, laziness ? The government ?

What happens to the people who do everything they can, do well, and the government decides to take it from them.

If you don't have Bill Gates, Steve Jobs , and people like that how is it supposed to work.

Are you going to do it ?

At least I have sense enough to know I don't deserve anything from them.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-19-2017, 05:48 PM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
You say a lot that's wrong there, ZJ. For one, show me a post where I said I want largess for me from the government. (That is, if you're in the mood to back up your claims, which you seldom are.)

For the rest, your basic moral claim is embodied in this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
What happens to the people who do everything they can, do well, and the government decides to take it from them.
The small problem with your question is that word 'it.' You really don't say, but it seems in context to mean 'all of it.' That is not what anyone but extremists advocates. Us normal, moderate liberals are only suggesting 'part of it.' The mega rich like you reference, after this part is taken, will not have to go without one little thing. No houses sold, no thinner steaks, no effect on their lifestyle whatsoever. in short, what happens? Nothing real. Numbers change. That's it.

So your fear that there will be no more Bill Gates or Steve Jobs is overblown.

But there's another thing that I'm sure you don't realize, any more than a fish realizes that it is swimming in water. The big problem with your question is the assumption embodied in it, that the mega-rich are indeed entitled to all their riches in the first place, that it is unquestionably THEIRS, before thieving liberals come to take [part of] it away. Well, where does the money come from? Profits, dividends (which are a distribution of profits), stock gains (theoretically related to profits, but not so much now), mega salaries for those still on the way up, funded by corporate income that would otherwise be profit, and interest (rent paid by others seeking profit on already-acquired profit). Basicaly, really, profit is the whole story right?

I'm not saying good or bad, I'm being technical. Now profit is basically a firm's income, less it's expenses, right? Basically, a firm operates, and everybody in it gets a fixed return--their agreed wages or salary. That's part of expenses. Then creditors get a fixed return, their agreed interest. Then profit is everything left over. It's not fixed--it can be little or even negative, but it can likewise be very large. Large or small, the owners get all of it.

Why do the owners get all of it? Did they do all the work? No, there are lots and lots of workers. Did they put up all the capital? Generally no, the firm typically floats loans--bonds or whatever. One might logically think that these other people who contributed to profit would deserve some of it. But no, we're very sure the owners own all the profit, that it's theirs in law and justice, obviously?

But why? Did God carve that on a rock somewhere? Nope. Basically because law and custom say so. But custom is just tradition, the dead hand of the past. New things--like corporate ownership of vast enterprises--might call for rethinking old ideas. And law--let's be honest--is no guide to what is truly right, being mainly written by the rich and for the rich.

So before we all cry in anguished rage over the schemes to deprive the rich of what is theirs, we can ponder why it is theirs, and whether changes in law and custom--which after all, are whatever we say they are--might be helpful.
__________________
If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!

Last edited by donquixote99; 04-19-2017 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:30 PM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,899
Bill Gates may be overblown. Steve Jobs is not. He was a force of nature. He took the industry in a direction that it may have gone in eventually. But when ?

As to your thoughts on wealth, the very wealthy are not the ones that get clobbered by the far left. It is the middle class. Despite the liberals endless use of millionaires and billionaires there just aren't enough of them. It is just campaign rhetoric to mobilize stupid people.
Obamacare is the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class in our lifetime. It is nothing to the very wealthy.

People like Bill Gates wealth is stock in corporation that he and a couple of other guys started. That is pretty much the case with all of the super wealthy other than Warren Buffet who simply invested in these for sixty years or more.

Still, his wealth is in stock. And, it's value is forward looking based on future earnings expectations. It is not a pot of gold. It is not liquid or liquidated except in small fractions. Just good fodder for the far left.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:34 PM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
How do you know that Obamacare is the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class in our lifetime? Do you have numbers to back that up?
__________________
If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:20 AM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
How do you know that Obamacare is the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class in our lifetime? Do you have numbers to back that up?
Well, 20,000,000 people were added supposedly. Most of them on Medicaid or heavily subsidized. The number of young people was grossly overestimated because the penalty was trivial compared to the cost of insurance.

So, the new insured are overwhelmingly subsidized since they could not afford insurance to begin with being the whole idea.

What the rich put in to payroll taxes is insignificant since their wealth is not income until they sell it, and even then it is not subject to payroll taxes.

So, where is it coming from.

The insurance companies ? No
Young healthy people buying insurance ? No
"The Rich" ? No.
Cost reduction ? That's comical.

The middle class paying much more for healthcare ? Yes

Last edited by ZeroJunk; 04-20-2017 at 06:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:04 AM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
OK, your source is your own logic, and what you think you know.

Let's keep the goal in mind--supporting (or not) that Obamacare is the 'the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class in our lifetime.'

Your are mixing up two big circulations of money. First there is the funding and payment of subsidies. The subsidies are government funds, from taxes, that go to insurers (on behalf of lower-income consumers). Then there is payments of 'health care costs' by consumers, with their own money, to either insurance companies or to providers.

So, to say that the subsidies are a big hit on the middle class, you need to show tax impact, not health care cost impact. Health care cost doesn't go for subsidies, it goes either for health care, or for insurance company costs and profit. Subsidies are funded by tax. So, look into the new taxes that are part of the ACA. That's the only place you can find a new wealth transfer. Who pays those taxes? Is it primarily the middle class?

Let me know what you find out.
__________________
If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:07 AM
Chicks Chicks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 13,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
Well, 20,000,000 people were added supposedly. Most of them on Medicaid or heavily subsidized. The number of young people was grossly overestimated because the penalty was trivial compared to the cost of insurance.

So, the new insured are overwhelmingly subsidized since they could not afford insurance to begin with being the whole idea.

What the rich put in to payroll taxes is insignificant since their wealth is not income until they sell it, and even then it is not subject to payroll taxes.

So, where is it coming from.

The insurance companies ? No
Young healthy people buying insurance ? No
"The Rich" ? No.
Cost reduction ? That's comical.

The middle class paying much more for healthcare ? Yes
It's coming mostly from blue states, subsidizing red states. Because we care that everyone has access to healthcare, even those in rural areas, where drug addiction has taken so many lives.

My net worth puts me in the top 10%. Unlike Trump, I don't have a false need for extreme wealth. Enough to retire comfortably, without fear of being wiped out by a medical disaster, should be something everyone wishes for their fellow Americans. Thanks to FDR, LBJ and Obama, we have safety nets.

Many Republicans don't seem to care about such things, only about making themselves "better" than their neighbor. I don't understand their lack of empathy. They even have preachers who tell them God wants them to be rich. A perversion of Christianity, I'd say. The "moral" party seems to have lost touch with the foundation of their morality, supporting a president who worships nothing more than money.
__________________
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -
George Orwell
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.