Dialogue

[Boreas]

When I first joined up here the mix of contributors here was fairly evenly divided between Left and Right with maybe a slight tilt to the Right. I'm told that earlier, when Political Chat first started up, the vast majority of contributors represented the Right. Nowadays it's quite the opposite. There are VERY few posting from a Conservative, Libertarian or "Tea-Partyish" perspective.

Most of the active posters on the Right have gone silent, or nearly so, and there have been very few new arrivals to replace them. Most of those who have shown up and posted with any frequency have been Wingnut bomb-throwers and even they have pretty much disappeared. There are exceptions, of course. We have had new members from the Right, Whell being one example, whose desire is to make a substantive contribution to the dialogue but they are very few in number. And, of course, there are members on the Right who have stuck it out and continue to contribute but they too are few.

That being said, the trend is unmistakable and undeniable. This is turning into a de facto Left wing site. So, the Left has won, right? We've carried the day, right? We've cleared the field of significant opposition, right?

I don't think so. I think what has happened is that the majority of Right Wingers are now at a point where they no longer have any interest in engaging with their political opponents in anything like constructive conversation. They have been told by Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, Hannity and their ilk that we are un-American, God-hating, Fascist/Communists who want to destroy the country they love. We are "The Enemy" in the most basic meaning of that word. We are not to be spoken with, only spoken at in the most contemptuous terms possible. Some have even concluded that we are to be eliminated, or at least our leaders are.

This is the Culture War that Pat Buchannan prophesied when he ran for President in 1992. We are there now. We are in it and it will very likely destroy this country. September 11th should have united us as a people but instead it has been used to divide us. Religion should be used to promote love for all mankind but instead it is used to foster hatred for people not of your particular faith. Our economic crisis should have been a reason to unite and to pull together in tough times but it has been used to scapegoat people of a particular class, race or political ideology as being to blame. The election of our first Black president should have been an occasion for joy that at last we could envision an end to the racism and economic oppression that have so damaged our country for so long but instead it has nurtured the seeds of racial hatred that have lain fallow for a time and now our country is choked with the weeds of bigotry and race hatred.

This is a very, very bad time in this country - in the world - and unless we can all come to accept and to value our common humanity, regardless of the minor differences between us, we are absolutely finished.

John

[BlueStreak]

Sadly, I concur. No further comment on this topic, however.

Dave

[noonereal]

As far as the absence of posters on the right I think allot has to do with the nature of the forum and the belief on the right that by virtue of birth they are somehow more american than folks on the left.
This forum demands facts before your view is respected and faith has few facts.
I would think it is very frustrating to sincerely believe that you hold the one true truth then be unable to support this belief in fact as is required here. Part of being a liberal is to be open to ideas hence they are better able to shake off posts that folks on the right just can't.
I also think that part of the problem is that for some ridiculous reason many people on the right feel "looked down on" by the left and when they realize they have lost an argument and unwilling to give up that "faith" in their beliefs it becomes easier to withdraw.

Being closed minded makes one less able to cope with contradictory fact.

If you want to piss off someone on the right tell them they are un-american. Yet they tell you this with the conviction of a saint. Herein lies the problem.

IMHO of course.

[merrylander]

Not me, I have a very fancy certificate that says I am a bona fide American, so as Rhett Butler said "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

If people do not like my brand of conservatism I would say that it is more their misfortune than mine.

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind..."

John Donne Meditation XVII

In one of his verse letters to a Mr. T.W., Donne wrote;

"Pregnant again with the old twins Hope, and Fear . . ." and that my dears pretty much sums up the feeling that is abroad in the land.

[d-ray657]

One of my favorite themes here is reclaiming the meaning of Christianity - or more accurately - making it known that Christianity also stands for many of the values that liberals/progressives espouse. Values like giving to the poor, protecting those who are less able, pursuing peace and loving one's enemies are shared in many Christian communities. I feel fortunate to have grown up Methodist in a church that was very inclusive - not one to create an us and them attitude.

It can appear to some people that the left is dismissive of religion. My view of the left has always been that it is open to hearing other ideas, and respecting the sincerely held beliefs of others. What we really have trouble with is dealing with people who feel that they have a stranglehold on the TRUTH, and unfortunately many on the religious right display that attitude.

Because of the skeptics on the left, some on the left hesitate to speak of faith. To me it is quite possible to believe in a loving God who cares for us, but who also gives us free will - and brains. Being a Christian does not mean that one needs to reject science that would contradict the text of the Bible. As Rob has said, we don't have to believe that God sent a fax of the Bible, which must be accepted as cold hard facts. Instead, the stories of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, provide lessons in ways to better treat one another.

Sorry for all of the prologue to get to my point, but here it is. In my church I am surrounded by a group of warm and caring individuals. That experience helps remind me that people are capable of stepping outside of their own interests to tend to the needs of others. The people I am around in my church accept and love me despite my many faults. I suggest to anyone who wants to step out of their own comfort zone to explore a faith community. Likely, one will learn that the Beck/Palin/Falwell definition of Christianity is not an accurate representation of most people of faith. One might find a community that actually lives by and shares with others many of the principles that we on the left value. If nothing else, it provides a respite from the contentious attitude we see in much of society. I find it also provides the motivation to actually show people that people just like them are capable of caring for others.

Thanks for indulging me this far, but just one more point. Both here and on AK I find that we have become a community that cares for one another. Even though the participants in PC are relatively small in number, we bring diverse backgrounds to this community. The important point, however, is that we are a real community (not just a virtual one) and we do reach out to each other. When that type of concern exists in an internet group, I have hope that it is possible to carry out that attitude on a much larger scale.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Interesting Don, I grew up in a Union church, there were not enough protestants of any one denomination to have Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc. though my parents were Methodist (heck my oldest brother was christened Wesley).

[whell]

Boreas -

I think D-Ray is on to something.

Political dialog between truly interested parties is hard enough. Stir in the anonymity of the internet and you have a potential for a real powder keg. Most folks have trouble having civil political discourse over a beer or a cup of coffee, much less a public forum where such conversation can turn into a something of a public contest. Feeling get hurt, and folks either stick it out or go home.

The labeling/name calling doesn't help much either. Labeling folks as "x - nuts" is an old debate tactic, and I recognize it as such and don't get too hung up by it. Others, I'm not so sure. I've seen folks get their nickers in a knot for a lot less.

Individuals on both sides of an argument can get intimidated, particularly when they're not sure of their facts or clear on their convictions. I suggest the folks who remain are likely quite comfortable with their opinions, chasing away those who are less so, or less skilled at the art of debate.

So, you have a choice. Be more welcome, tolerant and supportive of those who are new here, and don't beat up on them too badly ( ) until they've gotten enough posts under their belt to get their feet wet and form a relationship or two in here. Or, take them on aggressively right away, and risk having them run for the tall grass.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Boreas -

I think D-Ray is on to something.

Political dialog between truly interested parties is hard enough. Stir in the anonymity of the internet and you have a potential for a real powder keg. Most folks have trouble having civil political discourse over a beer or a cup of coffee, much less a public forum where such conversation can turn into a something of a public contest. Feeling get hurt, and folks either stick it out or go home.

The labeling/name calling doesn't help much either. Labeling folks as "x - nuts" is an old debate tactic, and I recognize it as such and don't get too hung up by it. Others, I'm not so sure. I've seen folks get their nickers in a knot for a lot less.

Individuals on both sides of an argument can get intimidated, particularly when they're not sure of their facts or clear on their convictions. I suggest the folks who remain are likely quite comfortable with their opinions, chasing away those who are less so, or less skilled at the art of debate.

So, you have a choice. Be more welcome, tolerant and supportive of those who are new here, and don't beat up on them too badly ( ) until they've gotten enough posts under their belt to get their feet wet and form a relationship or two in here. Or, take them on aggressively right away, and risk having them run for the tall grass.

+1. I think you hit the mark on this one. We tried to run you off (just kidding, of course), but your resilience and conviction have helped you weather the onslaught.

Welcome to the intellectual elite, bro.

[JJIII]

Originally Posted by whell

Boreas -

I think D-Ray is on to something.

Political dialog between truly interested parties is hard enough. Stir in the anonymity of the internet and you have a potential for a real powder keg. Most folks have trouble having civil political discourse over a beer or a cup of coffee, much less a public forum where such conversation can turn into a something of a public contest. Feeling get hurt, and folks either stick it out or go home.

The labeling/name calling doesn't help much either. Labeling folks as "x - nuts" is an old debate tactic, and I recognize it as such and don't get too hung up by it. Others, I'm not so sure. I've seen folks get their nickers in a knot for a lot less.

Individuals on both sides of an argument can get intimidated, particularly when they're not sure of their facts or clear on their convictions. I suggest the folks who remain are likely quite comfortable with their opinions, chasing away those who are less so, or less skilled at the art of debate.

So, you have a choice. Be more welcome, tolerant and supportive of those who are new here, and don't beat up on them too badly ( ) until they've gotten enough posts under their belt to get their feet wet and form a relationship or two in here. Or, take them on aggressively right away, and risk having them run for the tall grass.

I agree. Dig back to the beginning of this forum and check out how many good people have just gone away.

[d-ray657]

Whell,

We could tell pretty early on that you could stand the heat, so I expect that you will hang around long enough to complete your education. I do think that anyone who posts an opinion here should be prepared to have his or her points challenged. I participate here because I enjoy the debate - it's part of my nature. From what you have said you do not take opposition personally. Neither do most of the people who participate here.

We can also put aside our differences here and recognize some of the things we have in common: family, music, cars, jobs, food, pets, illnesses, achievements, and so on. That is why I speak of this as a community. We think of people as more than screen names. Indeed, one of the people with whom I have had some of the most strident debates is a good friend from the audio side. We agree that we will not discuss politics at audio get-togethers (although audio talk is usually tolerated here.)

It is difficult to get any respect for one's ideas here, however, when one comes in throwing bombs. If the only contribution a person can make to the conversation here is to repeat the talking points of Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olbermann, and refuse, or be unable, to provide a basis for his or her statements, s/he will not enjoy it here. Those who do that will end up being largely ignored. You are probably right that we should give everyone an opportunity to learn the MO here. Usually someone who comes in throwing bombs will be told that unsupported rants do not contribute to the discussion - and I have no problem with that - I even do it.

Whell, other than being outnumbered here on many of your views, have you ever felt that you were discouraged to post an opinion or make an argument? I hope not, because this place should respect the right to hold opposing views. But as stated, respecting one's ability to state a view does not mean accepting the view without question. I hope you and like-minded individuals continue to participate, or come in to participate. This is not a place for the left-leaning to just pat each other on the back.

Regards,

D-Ray