The Great Experiment

[barbara]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

No, just trying to have a meaningful conversation sans attitude. I want to communicate with you guys.

Twodogs, Your desire and encouragement for meaningful conversation is admirable. Nothing better than a healthy debate. I think the key to remaining civilized is for all parties to avoid using "talking points" and, instead, converse using their own well thought out conclusions. (Easier said than done, as we all know)
Health care is a good starting point.
I would ask the same question that finnbow did, what is it, specifically, that you don't like about Canada's health care and why don't you think it would work in the US and how do you think we could do it better?

[BlueStreak]

I think discussion sans any slapstick is a bore.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

I could go live almost anywhere in the world. And I've seen a big chunk of it.
But, I won't, because I love my people. So, I'm in it for good.

Dave

[Charles]

Originally Posted by JJIII

Hoping for the best!

And expecting more of the same.

I noticed I was becoming as much of an evil tempered bastard as anyone.

Life's too short.

Chas

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

and pay for a Cadillac plan)..

May I ask how much it costs?

[Twodogs]

Originally Posted by noonereal

May I ask how much it costs?

Yeh, right at 1360 a month for the wife and myself. Of course the guy with ten kids pays the same, it's like 8.50 an hour that we put in.


As far Canada's health care, I've just heard bad stories about long waits, trouble getting elective surgeries, what surgeries are considered elective (like hernias), etc.. There's that and the number of Canadians that say how they come here for medical treatment. I would not like the government to be involved in my health care at all. I'd much rather pay my 8.50 an hour, and keep it between me and my doctor. He has told me that he will be opening a cash only private practice when the time comes. He complains that he already spends more time filling out paper work than he does treating patients. I wonder how many of the truly good doctors will stay and do it by the government rules. I personally don't think everyone is going to buy health care insurance either, which is key for the Obama plan to work. Let's face it, we have a lot of folks on the dole already, and they aren't going to come up with that kind of money. They will get a fine, and ignore it. It all looks good on paper, but when you actually try to apply it real word, I think it will be a huge mess. I would have rather seen some smaller changes one at a time, than completely throwing out what has been working for so long, and replacing it with something that the majority of Americans do not want. My question about folks moving is sincere, I guess like Blue Streak it's mostly due to family. I just can't get it through my mind that some Americans think there is a better deal out there. Maybe I'm just stuck in my old ways and don't like radical change.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Yeh, right at 1360 a month for the wife and myself. Of course the guy with ten kids pays the same, it's like 8.50 an hour that we put in.


As far Canada's health care, I've just heard bad stories about long waits, trouble getting elective surgeries, what surgeries are considered elective (like hernias), etc.. There's that and the number of Canadians that say how they come here for medical treatment. I would not like the government to be involved in my health care at all. I'd much rather pay my 8.50 an hour, and keep it between me and my doctor. He has told me that he will be opening a cash only private practice when the time comes. He complains that he already spends more time filling out paper work than he does treating patients. I wonder how many of the truly good doctors will stay and do it by the government rules. I personally don't think everyone is going to buy health care insurance either, which is key for the Obama plan to work. Let's face it, we have a lot of folks on the dole already, and they aren't going to come up with that kind of money. They will get a fine, and ignore it. It all looks good on paper, but when you actually try to apply it real word, I think it will be a huge mess. I would have rather seen some smaller changes one at a time, than completely throwing out what has been working for so long, and replacing it with something that the majority of Americans do not want. My question about folks moving is sincere, I guess like Blue Streak it's mostly due to family. I just can't get it through my mind that some Americans think there is a better deal out there. Maybe I'm just stuck in my old ways and don't like radical change.

Couple points. Most American's have no clue if they want national healthcare or not. They say they don't. A much different thing.

Second, at $1,300 a month most Americans simply cannot hope to have your coverage. Which brings me to point 3.

In a society as prosperous as ours people should not be sick and dying because healthcare is not available to them because of the cost. If ever there was something that a society shared it is the availability of staying alive. I can't see having the strongest army in the world to defend a country that let's it's own die. Seems ass backwards to me.

That said, I get your argument. At nearly $9 an hour to have good healthcare it would also tick me off that others would get the same care for about nothing. Anyone would be pissed.

Also, I agree that Romneycare is a poorly designed and compromised beyond reason. As such I don't support it either. We need a single payer and it needs to come straight from progressive taxes.

As to doctors, why do so few qualify to go to medical school yet we have foreigners who are hacks doing most the heavy lifting in ER's and primary care. Heck people born and trained overseas seem to be more plentiful than American born doctors. I know why to, they pay them slop comparatively but compared to where they came from they are doing well.

Few like change. Change disturbs one's feeling of security. This is a big factor in the outcry against national healthcare although it's not obvious to most.

[barbara]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Yeh, right at 1360 a month for the wife and myself. Of course the guy with ten kids pays the same, it's like 8.50 an hour that we put in.


As far Canada's health care, I've just heard bad stories about long waits, trouble getting elective surgeries, what surgeries are considered elective (like hernias), etc.. There's that and the number of Canadians that say how they come here for medical treatment. I would not like the government to be involved in my health care at all. I'd much rather pay my 8.50 an hour, and keep it between me and my doctor. He has told me that he will be opening a cash only private practice when the time comes. He complains that he already spends more time filling out paper work than he does treating patients. I wonder how many of the truly good doctors will stay and do it by the government rules. I personally don't think everyone is going to buy health care insurance either, which is key for the Obama plan to work. Let's face it, we have a lot of folks on the dole already, and they aren't going to come up with that kind of money. They will get a fine, and ignore it. It all looks good on paper, but when you actually try to apply it real word, I think it will be a huge mess. I would have rather seen some smaller changes one at a time, than completely throwing out what has been working for so long, and replacing it with something that the majority of Americans do not want. My question about folks moving is sincere, I guess like Blue Streak it's mostly due to family. I just can't get it through my mind that some Americans think there is a better deal out there. Maybe I'm just stuck in my old ways and don't like radical change.

Twodogs, most people simply can not afford 1360 a month, especially not the person with ten kids.

I've heard the "horror" stories about waiting for medical care in Canada, and, I'm sure there are people there who have legitimate complaints. But, believe me, our system is far more broken......

Last year, I waited nine months for a routine gall bladder surgery....seems my information got caught up in some sort of bureaucratic paper shuffle. and got lost . You see.....it happens here too.....

And, if our system is so great, why do united states citizens go to Canada and Mexico to get their medical care and their (prescription) drugs? I don't have any statisics at hand, but, I work with the elderly, and this is common.

You ask how many doctors will abide by government rules..... they already do have to abide by government rules. If they want to practice medicine, they will continue to.

I don't think Obamacare is perfect at the stage it is in now.... it will take years of legislation to get it to a better place. But, it is obvious that what we have now isn't working. A national health care system does not equate to people "being on the dole". That isn't what this is all about.

We, as a country, are smart enough to realize that our current health care system just isn't working......if it was, our emergency rooms wouldn't be full of people who should be going to the clinic for a visit, doctors wouldn't have to order six extra (expensive) diagnostic tests just for the purpose of covering their butts legally, and people wouldn't have to choose between bying their insulin or paying the utility bill.

The bottom line is that we currently have a "national health care system" only we call it Medicaid. And, we provide it in the most ineffective and ineffcient way possible. Instead of putting they money up front and emphasizing preventative care, we throw money at the problems after the fact.

I can appreciate the fact that you are able to afford health insurance and am glad for you, but, consider this...
When something catastrophic happens, it isn't just the medical bills that impact the family financially. When my husband became disabled, I lost time at work, had to travel extensively for his medical needs, had to have baby sitters, overnight costs at out of town medical centers, bridge tolls, gas for the car, having to grab dinner on the run....none of those expenses are covered by insurance. With the added expense, the loss of income, how long do you think the average couple can afford to keep paying 1360 a month for that insurance (if they could afford it in the first place)?

[finnbow]

One thing's for sure - folks with good national health care systems (Germany, France, Switzerland, Taiwan ...) would oppose going to a system like ours far more than Americans are fearful of theirs.

In fact, Taiwan redesigned their health care system from the ground up and tasked a highly professional and competent board to do it. The only thing they could agree upon from the outset was that the American system was a blueprint for what they didn't want to do.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Charles

And expecting more of the same.

I noticed I was becoming as much of an evil tempered bastard as anyone.

Life's too short.

Chas

I was born this way. And no thread posted by TD will ever change that.
The good Lord made me a sarcastic bastard. If you take issue with that, go talk to him.

Dave