I think they're lying. And I think they know it.

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by merrylander

So if people are abusing the system they are doing it with the collaboration of doctors and hospitals, it takes two to tango.

When the Conservative party instituted Single Payer in Canada things were in a pretty bad state. Hospitals were hiring nurses from third world countries because they did not want to pay decent salaries. I saw some of this first hand when my Dad died. Things changed for the better afterward, sure some people might go to the doctor with imaginary ailments, hypochondriacs will ever be with us - big deal.

Back around WW II times people whose taxes had built the schools and roads could find themselves at retirement with scarce enough to live on. They could get a pension from the government but the means test said you can't own your own home (typical right wing stupidity take away the home and give them a pension that just covers the rent). Many parents deeded the home over to their children and got the pension. Then in the need for money the children sold the house out from under them. Oh ye generation of vipers.

Finally wiser heads prevailed and the means test was eliminated, replace by income tax well above the value of the pension. Even now if all a person has is the basic pension, a supplement of $635 per month is available.

Oh yes, despite some of the other blatant lies you were told by our estimable senators, Canada has negligable debt.

People are abusing the system because they have been provided the means to do so. The free, unlimited health care for "those in need" in our state (very liberal) was underwritten by state legislature. We have people flocking to our state for handouts or all types because of it. Just a peek at the arrest record for a particular week of the month shows huge spikes in arrests of individuals from Illinois and Indiana for example. These multiple location "residents" show up to pick up their checks and go back home. Also estimated in the multiple millions. The subject gets broached periodically but is quickly swept under the rug. I don't even know where to begin with the medical aspect.

Our state rep. Nora Slawick (DFL district 55B) stopped by the house about three months ago. My wife and I listened quietly as she layed out her story and ask for our support. She got on to the subject of affordable state health care and mention how important it was to be on board with that. I had nothing to add. My wife smiled and told her that she was a RN and saw what was going on, on a daily basis on the state level and wanted to know how we would go about signing up for that program. Nora smiled a nervous smile, thanked us for our time (stepping backward while doing so), turned and walked away. That spoke volumes for me.

"...imaginary ailments, hypochondriacs will ever be with us - big deal."

If that were only the problem. With all due respect Rob, that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

I was watching C-SPAN a while back and listening to some House member pimp the National Health Care bill that was being paraded around at the time. He mentioned that part of the paying for it would be in recovering the 100's of millions in waste and fraud that they were all ready aware of in Medicare/medicare. Recovering??? If this has been apparent common knowledge, why has it not been taken care of already. We are dealing with fools and incompetents. Continuing to put more money and control in their hands is a bit of a concern for me.

RC

[merrylander]

As I said there is collaboration, or rather collusion, that is allowing this to happen. There is nothing "liberal" about a thief or the people who aid and abet.

Systems can be run honestly, if the State legislature does not wish to do so throw them out.

Being seasoned citizens we are bombarded with the medicare thieves who absolutely guarantee us a power chair even if our insurance and medicare turn us down. Oh, and we don't need to worry about the paperwork, they will take care of it, sure because they don't want us to see what a scam they are running.

When Florence fell down the stairs because her knee gave out we approached the big name firm that advertises chirlifts - first estimate $17,000. When he saw to look on my face he "called the home office" - it came down to $13,500.

I got online and found excellent chairlifts for - first estimate $6,500. They shipped even before they got our check, and when they found it was cash and not credit card the price dropped to $6,000. There are more predatory people out their preying on seniors because they know they can screw the government in the process. Face it, like Franklin surmised, Constitutional government would work very well until we bacame so corrupt that we need a despot. There are also the honest ones like Summit who built our chairlifts. Relative piece of cake to install and the usual charge is $400 per lift, if I was younger I would become an installer, easy money.

Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Systems can be run honestly, if the State legislature does not wish to do so throw them out.

Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

Words of wise wisdom Rob

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

People are abusing the system because they have been provided the means to do so. The free, unlimited health care for "those in need" in our state (very liberal) was underwritten by state legislature. We have people flocking to our state for handouts or all types because of it.

If we got rid of every system that was abused we'd have little left. Correction: we'd have nothing left. It's like people who argue that some law or other should be repealed because "people will do it anyway". Well people kill people anyway, but I'm not about to make murder legal. Nor am I prepared to give up on making health care more accessable due to the fact that some will abuse it.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by merrylander

As I said there is collaboration, or rather collusion, that is allowing this to happen. There is nothing "liberal" about a thief or the people who aid and abet.

Systems can be run honestly, if the State legislature does not wish to do so throw them out.

Being seasoned citizens we are bombarded with the medicare thieves who absolutely guarantee us a power chair even if our insurance and medicare turn us down. Oh, and we don't need to worry about the paperwork, they will take care of it, sure because they don't want us to see what a scam they are running.

When Florence fell down the stairs because her knee gave out we approached the big name firm that advertises chirlifts - first estimate $17,000. When he saw to look on my face he "called the home office" - it came down to $13,500.

I got online and found excellent chairlifts for - first estimate $6,500. They shipped even before they got our check, and when they found it was cash and not credit card the price dropped to $6,000. There are more predatory people out their preying on seniors because they know they can screw the government in the process. Face it, like Franklin surmised, Constitutional government would work very well until we bacame so corrupt that we need a despot. There are also the honest ones like Summit who built our chairlifts. Relative piece of cake to install and the usual charge is $400 per lift, if I was younger I would become an installer, easy money.

Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

Great post.

When my Mothers Alzheimers became unmanageable for the family, we went in search of a "nursing home". We went and looked at some that ranged from scary to lavish. Well, of course we weren't about to put mom in a place that we regarded as "scary" just because it was cheap. And there was no sense in putting her in a palace either. (Her mind was gone, most of the time she thought she was in the old house, it was the 1940s/50s/60s, and we were still little kids.) Point is, a decent, yet conservative "senior care facilty" was $6,500 a month. One place we looked at was over $20,000 A MONTH! Some were as low as $3,000 a month, but I wouldn't trust them with my dog, let alone my mother. Now, Medicaid payed the lions share of that $6,500, and my father paid the rest out of his Union pension.

Point is this; I had no idea just how much money is tied up in senior care, until we went through this with my Mom. And just how incredibly expensive everything is.

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Hundreds of millions in waste- let's examine that for a minute.

Federal Budget 2010 $3.55 Trillion.

Okay, how much is "hundreds of millions"? Let's say, what, seven hundred million. That's a big number.

700,000,000/3,550,000,000,000 = about 1.9

Not saying it doesn't matter. But if we refuse to make progress on health care due to 1.9% of the federal budget being "wasted" I think we're making a mistake. That's assuming the undocumented claim of "hundreds of millions" is accurate which it almost certainly isn't. I'm not saying we don't deal with it. Get the system in place and then work on any abuses we can. But to pass the opportunity over what in the scheme of things is so little would be a mistake.

You've all heard my rant on this before. If we want to cut spending there are only three meaningfull places to look. About 75% of the federal budget is Medicade/Medicare, Social Security and Millitary. You'll never get elected if you even hint that you would even look at possibly, maybe suggest that we should cut SS or MM. So there's only one answer. This isn't hard.

Actually, the health care reform plan is the first thing I've ever heard them talk about that starts to address any of the big three expenses. If they really succeed in making medical care less expensive it would have a substantial impact on MM.

Or we could do the responsible thing and quit whining about how much everything is and start paying our bills. When I go to Wal-Mart and buy a big screen TV, they don't much care if I think they paid too much for a Union trucker to ship the thing. They pretty much want me to pay for all of it. And I would, had I ever been to a Wal-Mart and if I owned a big screen TV. We need to run the country the same way. No money? No war.

[BlueStreak]

"Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

Magnificent!

I would add, however, that what amazes me are the people that I know personally who think that corruption does "wear a liberal or conservative label", and that it is decidedly "liberal". This due in no small part to the "Christian country" nonsense to which you make reference. And, where, pray tell, does that come from?

Dave

[doucanoe]

Our Health insurance that we pay dearly for is an pales in comparison to MN Care.

That said, my parents now once again (this time of the year) fall into the "doughnut hole" created by Bush and the pharmaceutical companys. My 76 yr old mothers medications are mind numbingly expensive. It saddens me to see hard working people like my parents being screwed over by a system they have spent their whole lives paying into. I also have sympathy for others that have been screwed over by a system that has created generational "poverty" and entitlements to perpetuate it.

"Our" generous social programs have been more instrumental in destroying generations that helping them I fear. It's a win/win for them (politicians). It allows them to wave the banner of compassion and at the same time, lock in votes by a constituency that has no other recourse than to vote handout.

They will have us all there eventually. With the exception of the money and power elite of course. Contrary to popular opinion here, the money and power elite reside on both sides of the tarnished coin.

RC

[piece-itpete]

Lordy lordy. Here I studiously avoided reference to the Christian comment, but the Christians that designed our government were far more skeptical of government power than just about anyone alive today.

Increased government? Health care is what 17-19% of the economy? Just say no.

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

...the Christians that designed our government...

Which Christians are those?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

There are loads and loads more. Got these from the first thing that popped up on a google search. Imagine someone who said some of these things running for office today. Our Founding Fathers couldn't get elected. Seems they were far more skeptical about God too.

Take care,

Ed