Iraq - Not about WMDs or Bush's Daddy

[Bigerik]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

That is very true. Notice Hillary's support of it right off the bat. Bills statements while still in power show Washington couldn't wait to get rid of him.

It was a problem and considering the many quotes, including Dems in power as well, a more serious one than the average American now thinks.

Now, problem solved. Next time you see Iraqi kids playing in playground on TV remember we did have something to do with that.

Pete

Actually, Pete, I think it is a MUCH worse problem now. Instead of a moderately progressive (for the area) dictatorship who helped keep our worst enemy in the area in line, and kept the religious nutcase away, we now have a completely destabilized country, in seemingly uncorrectable poverty, and ripe for take over by the same Muslim fundamentalists who were supposed to be the enemy. Further, America is now broke.

Then it was a minor inconvenience. Now it is a catastrophe and a MUCH worse problem than the average American thinks.

BTW, As much of a MORON as I think Bush was for starting this war, he likely would not have had the opportunity if Clinton would have grown a pair and would have used his time in office to normalize relations with Iraq. He was just afraid to look stupid, because Bush Sr, and his folks, did such a good job in painting this tinpot dictator, and former US ally, into the second coming of Hitler. So, we are now in our fourth totally inept administration when it comes to dealing with the very small Iraq problem.

And just to clear up one thing, Iraq was never a threat to the US. They were just the small bully in the same playground that the US wanted to play the big bully in.

[Mr. Lin]

Originally Posted by Bigerik

Actually, this stuff was all in place a decade before the actual war began. Read a very interesting, well documented and researched book on it, called Rise of the Vulcans (I think. Will double check. And not the green ones with the pointy ears either!). The Iraqi invasion was basically in the cards before the Bush cabal actually got into power. They just forgot to tell the American people of the plan...

I actually discovered that personally after the fact, but what I mostly meant was that the highly questionable (to put it lightly) nature of the given justifications for going to war were there to be seen by anyone at the time, and largely weren't because of the unstoppable tide of fervent nationalism.

So it had all been planned years before it actually happened, and that could have been seen too - but I think one would be giving the average person too much credit in assuming most people could have put it together themselves, even with some of us insisting something was very wrong.

Man, I got into some nasty fights with certain close family members back then. It was like arguing with a brick wall. Since I was a college student at the time, people just assumed I was the stereotypical "angry young man," full of conspiracy theories, speaking of conspiracy theories...

[Mr. Lin]

Originally Posted by Bigerik

Actually, Pete, I think it is a MUCH worse problem now. Instead of a moderately progressive (for the area) dictatorship who helped keep our worst enemy in the area in line, and kept the religious nutcase away, we now have a completely destabilized country, in seemingly uncorrectable poverty, and ripe for take over by the same Muslim fundamentalists who were supposed to be the enemy. Further, America is now broke.

Then it was a minor inconvenience. Now it is a catastrophe and a MUCH worse problem than the average American thinks.

BTW, As much of a MORON as I think Bush was for starting this war, he likely would not have had the opportunity if Clinton would have grown a pair and would have used his time in office to normalize relations with Iraq. He was just afraid to look stupid, because Bush Sr, and his folks, did such a good job in painting this tinpot dictator, and former US ally, into the second coming of Hitler. So, we are now in our fourth totally inept administration when it comes to dealing with the very small Iraq problem.

And just to clear up one thing, Iraq was never a threat to the US. They were just the small bully in the same playground that the US wanted to play the big bully in.

QFT

If one wants to use the logic that Iraq was a threat to the U.S., there are other bigger threats we should have tackled first, like North Korea, or Iran - but I think even W. Bush was smart enough to know what an extreme catastrophe invading either of those countries would have turned into. For a while there I was seriously worried the Bush regime was actually going to go for Iran after Iraq. That would have been very, very bad.

In any case, the most important point in Erik's quote above is the threat of religious extremists. They are the biggest threat to humanity as a whole today, and they cheered the Bush administrations' Iraq invasion because they knew it would give them a new battleground on which to face the U.S., and an angry, desperate Muslim population ripe for recruiting.

Aside from that, the other main reason I reject completely any argument that the Iraq war was justified, or a good thing by any measurement whatsoever, is the financial toll it took on the U.S.. Just imagine, for a moment, what could have been done with the money spent (and still being spent) on the Iraq war. We happen to have an education crisis in the U.S., out-dated infrastructures, and no good health care plan for our population.

[piece-itpete]

Iraq is increasingly stable and prosperous, although they've got a long way to go. And Iran? We've got bases on BOTH sides now, and as shown we are a lot more powerful than the tinpot Butcher.

Saddam even mildly progressive? Ask a Kuwaiti about that. Or perhaps one of Saddams' sons rape victims.

Pete

[Bigerik]

Stable and prosperous? Last I heard the GNP was still just a fraction of what it used to be. And enough soldiers to bring a kind of stability, o guess.

A lot of what was supposedly done in Kuwait by the invading Iraqi forces turned out to just be BS Kuwaiti propaganda to drag the US into a war with Iraq. Then again, I don't know of many invading, or I believe the Republican euphemism is "liberating", forces that are popular with the local populace.

[merrylander]

What with al Malaki kissing Ahmadinijad's a** we seem to have handed Iraq to the mullahs. If there really was a people in the area who need freeing it is the Kurds. Between Iraq and Turkey the simply gobbled up Kurdistan.

[Bigerik]

Originally Posted by merrylander

What with al Malaki kissing Ahmadinijad's a** we seem to have handed Iraq to the mullahs. If there really was a people in the area who need freeing it is the Kurds. Between Iraq and Turkey the simply gobbled up Kurdistan.

Yup! We have taken the one secular country in the area and handed it to the Muslims. This was the goal of this war, right?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by merrylander

What with al Malaki kissing Ahmadinijad's a** we seem to have handed Iraq to the mullahs.

As Nassar once observed, the Mideast (excepting Egypt, of course) was nothing but tribes with flags. The Shia will stick together. Period.

[Charles]

Hegel was right, war is the natural state, peace is a time where you rest and prepare to go back to war.

It's fuck your buddy day, and every man for himself.

Does anyone really expect anything better from homo sapiens?

If I wished to make a case for creationism, I would simply point out just how far human nature has actually evolved.

Even my dog understands the law of the jungle.

Chas

[finnbow]

Now Ayad Allawi, former Prime Minister of Iraq, weighs in on how big of a mess his country is. One of the interesting factoids in his piece is that "Iraq is the world’s fourth-most-corrupt country and by far the worst in the Middle East." 4,000 dead soldiers and $Trillions for this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...xsJ_story.html