Did We Win the Iraq War (or even the Surge)

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by icenine

Or a government-less Syria with Al-Queda elements doing all sorts of bad things; a new Somalia is not a good thing in the Middle East right now.

Not a big problem for Israel.

[piece-itpete]

A very nice thread, thanks everyone.

I tend to agree with Dond that it covers too much. Still ok though.

My take, there's some really really big things missed. Forget that Korea even at the 38th parellel 'contained' the Reds. What about having US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia - infidels in the Holy Land?

Yes 'we' wanted Saddam gone. I have no doubt that this was as true in the 90s as 2001. He was a destabilizing influence on the whole region!

I just don't see the 'loss'. Did we want Iraq to become a prosperous democracy, friend of the US? Of course. But just because it isn't doesn't mean certain important objectives weren't met.

Btw, I agree with the author on one certain observation, that it's not that big of a deal over time, with thes caveat, that it's influence may have at least helped jumpstart the Arab Spring.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Yes 'we' wanted Saddam gone. I have no doubt that this was as true in the 90s as 2001. He was a destabilizing influence on the whole region...
...Btw, I agree with the author on one certain observation, that it's not that big of a deal over time, with thes caveat, that it's influence may have at least helped jumpstart the Arab Spring.

Pete

It seems to me that these are contradictory statements. As big a murderous douchebag as Saddam was, his presence actually stabilized the Mideast (as Tito did in Yugoslavia, FWIW).

[piece-itpete]

The images of Iraqi women stepping over dead bodies to vote was extremely powerful.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Wait a sec - Saddam = stability? Maybe once upon a time....

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Wait a sec - Saddam = stability? Maybe once upon a time....

Pete

Absolutely. He kept Iran in check. By ousting Saddam, we put out the red carpet for the Iranians to exert their influence over the Shia majority. And we paid $ 1 Trillion, 4,300 dead, and ~32,000 wounded for this outcome? Brilliant.

It seems the same thing is occurring in Afghanistan now with Karzai accusing us of colluding with the Taliban against him.

[piece-itpete]

Agreed he did way more than keep Iran in check, a while back. After the gulf war he was a lot broke-er than he used to be, the UN aside

So, war with Iran, invaded Kuwait, threatened SA - as well as paid cash rewards to families of suicide bombers re: Israel ($25k!) - unsure how that adds up to stability.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Agreed he did way more than keep Iran in check, a while back. After the gulf war he was a lot broke-er than he used to be, the UN aside

So, war with Iran, invaded Kuwait, threatened SA - as well as paid cash rewards to families of suicide bombers re: Israel ($25k!) - unsure how that adds up to stability.

Pete

So, can I assume that you think that the $1 Trillion was well spent, along with the 4,300 dead and ~32,000 wounded?

[piece-itpete]

Jury's still out imo. However it wasn't the incredibly stupid thing it's often made out to be.

If we knew 'our' original plan wouldn't have worked I doubt we would've done the same thing.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The images of Iraqi women stepping over dead bodies to vote was extremely powerful.

Pete

Is that what Blacks and Latinos are going to have to resort to in the next election cycle, Pete?

Dave