Israel has invaded Gaza...

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

There is a time for realism. The FARC/left wing rebels have been fighting in Colombia for decades and have recently realized the game is up. FARC agreed to sue for peace when it discern that it had become irrelevant and the Colombian people had moved past its methods and followers..

It is time for Hamas to be bold...recognize Israel right to exist and embarrass
the Israelis.

It is time to try something new.

Forgive me but . I get what you're saying about tactics but Colombia's troubles have always been about politics ala the Marxists vs. the Oligarchs with the 'helpful bloody hand' of Uncle Sam.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Forgive me but . I get what you're saying about tactics but Colombia's troubles have always been about politics ala the Marxists vs. the Oligarchs with the 'helpful bloody hand' of Uncle Sam.

The Marxists have realized that they were beaten and it was time to get the best deal. Chavez and Castro encouraged them in that direction.

Hamas has no hope of physically defeating the Jewish state, unless it acquires a nuclear suit case.

Only thing Hamas is achieving is increase punishment of its people. Israel and its universal connections are too powerful. Time to sue for peace.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Hamas has no hope of physically defeating the Jewish state, unless it acquires a nuclear suit case.

Not then either. You keep confusing hurting an enemy with defeating them. Not the same thing at all.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Not then either. You keep confusing hurting an enemy with defeating them. Not the same thing at all.

No me: the stated aim of Hamas is to remove physically the Israeli state.

No doubt in my mind that if Hamas had the nuclear option, it would use it.
Have no illusion about the extreme position of Hamas.

It sees Israel as an intolerable imposition not only on the Palestinians but on
the Arab people in general.

I am saying it is time to step back from it suicidal attitude.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

No me: the stated aim of Hamas is to remove physically the Israeli state.

No doubt in my mind that if Hamas had the nuclear option, it would use it.
Have no illusion about the extreme position of Hamas.

It sees Israel as an intolerable imposition not only on the Palestinians but on
the Arab people in general.

I am saying it is time to step back from it suicidal attitude.

While this may be Hamas' stated aim, the facts on the ground show that Israel is actively wiping Palestine off the map in the West Bank.

http://www.fmep.org/resources/public...esentation.pdf

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

No me: the stated aim of Hamas is to remove physically the Israeli state.

No doubt in my mind that if Hamas had the nuclear option, it would use it.
Have no illusion about the extreme position of Hamas.

It sees Israel as an intolerable imposition not only on the Palestinians but on
the Arab people in general.

I am saying it is time to step back from it suicidal attitude.

What suicidal attitude? So Israel invades. They will take some losses, then Israel will pull out. Israel will try to make the punishment harsh, but there will actually be rather strict limits to how far they will go, in retaliation for a missle barrage that has caused, I think, one death....

Hammas isn't doing anything suicidal. They will come out of this just fine. Suicide, for them, would be becoming, in young Arab eyes, 'soft' on Isarel. Then their own people would get rid of them, something beyond Israel's power.

You said defeat of Israel. Now you say physical removal of Israel. "A suitcase bomb" is not enough for the first, and much less enough for the second. That's all I'm saying.

Basically, you're just throwing around this talk of Hamas using nukes as a way of saying how awful 'they' are. Doubtless some are passionate enough with the war emotion to want to kill some 10's of thousands of Israelis with a small nuke. But control hopefully there would lodge with more rational leadership who would realize the Israelis could and would kill ALL of them in retaliation. I believe this would be the case; I don't think the Hamas is a monstrous, crazed, monolithic 'they.' There are lots of teenagers of strong passion, but also older individuals capable of subtle thought--more like myself and you. Making non-suicidal strategy.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

What suicidal attitude? So Israel invades. They will take some losses, then Israel will pull out. Israel will try to make the punishment harsh, but there will actually be rather strict limits to how far they will go, in retaliation for a missle barrage that has caused, I think, one death....

Hammas isn't doing anything suicidal. They will come out of this just fine. Suicide, for them, would be becoming, in young Arab eyes, 'soft' on Isarel. Then their own people would get rid of them, something beyond Israel's power.

You said defeat of Israel. Now you say physical removal of Israel. "A suitcase bomb" is not enough for the first, and much less enough for the second. That's all I'm saying.

Basically, you're just throwing around this talk of Hamas using nukes as a way of saying how awful 'they' are. Doubtless some are passionate enough with the war emotion to want to kill some 10's of thousands of Israelis with a small nuke. But control hopefully there would lodge with more rational leadership who would realize the Israelis could and would kill ALL of them in retaliation. I believe this would be the case; I don't think the Hamas is a monstrous, crazed, monolithic 'they.' There are lots of teenagers of strong passion, but also older individuals capable of subtle thought--more like myself and you. Making non-suicidal strategy.

You fire rockets..kill probably one Israeli and loses 200 of your own people in the process. Isn't that suicidal?

It is logical to assume the worst if an organization used suicidal bombings as a strategy. I have no doubt Hamas would use the nuclear
option if they had it.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

You fire rockets..kill probably one Israeli and loses 200 of your own people in the process. Isn't that suicidal?

It is logical to assume the worst if an organization uses suicidal bombings as a strategy.

No, that's not suicidal. That's just 'willing to absorb some losses.' They guys in charge will be just fine, as I said. As long as they stay in power, it's not suicide for them, it's the opposite. It's staying alive.

Suicide bombing is a tactic that involves one sacrificial individual at a time. You're drawing too broad a conclusion from it. But what does all this talk of 'suicidal Palestinians' mean anyway? That what happens to them is their fault? It that the big point of your argument?

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

I have no doubt Hamas would use the nuclear
option if they had it.

So you are indeed convinced they are a monstrous, crazed monolithic 'they?" There's no rationality among them? They are not really a human community then, are they?

It follow there is no reason not to just kill them all, and no alternative. That's just where your 'logic' goes. Are you actually OK with that?

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

You fire rockets..kill probably one Israeli and loses 200 of your own people in the process. Isn't that suicidal?

Look at a map of the Middle East.

There are a whole lot more A-Rabs than there are Israelis.

And that gap is getting wider very day.

Just compare the birth rates over there.

So today they kill 1 Israeli, and the Israelis kill 200 A-Rabs.

And tomorrow they kill 1 Israeli, and the Israelis kill 200 A-Rabs.

And the next day they kill 1 Israeli, and the Israelis kill 200 A-Rabs.

And so on and so on until one day there are no more Israelis.