What part of illegal don’t you understand?

[Fast_Eddie]

I was asked this question in a discussion about illegal immigration. I responded by explaining what I see as a mixed message being sent by the United States. Yes, it’s illegal to enter the United States the way many people do. But when they arrive we give them jobs, accept their money for goods, allow them to access education and health care, and in some cases allow them to get a driver’s license and sell or rent them houses. I once heard it described as if we have two signs on the boarder, one saying “keep out” and the other saying “help wanted”.

I was sure this wasn’t a complete answer to the question, but thought it covered things pretty well. But I was curious and did a little more investigation. I was surprised at what I found. For instance, I didn’t realize the Federal Government provides Tax ID numbers to illegal workers. It even goes so far as to guarantee them that any information collected in an effort to allow them to pay taxes will not be used to deport them. That seems remarkable to me. I can only interpret that behavior one way – a wink and a nod. Sure, it’s illegal, but you know, not that big a deal.

As it turns out, there’s a significant school of thought that say illegal labor is keeping Social Security and Medicare afloat. Turns out most illegal workers (I found an estimate of 75% in a credible news article) pay taxes. And many of them, not anxious to interact with the government any more than need be for fear of being deported, do not file for refunds even if they have paid more than they’re assessed. In other words, not only do they pay their share, they pay more than they would if they were U.S. Citizens.

But the image we have of illegal labor may be more fundamentally flawed than even that suggests. Many people who are detained at the boarder report that they are not coming to the United States to look for a job. They’re coming to take a job they have already been offered. That’s right. Turns out U.S. employers are actively recruiting illegal labor. Not only that, but in some cases, they’re paying to have them shepherded across the boarder.

I have a family- a wife and two fantastic kids. I’ve been really lucky to have gotten a lot of support from my parents, a great education and some lucky brakes along the way. And I think it’s fair to say I’ve put in some hard work too. It’s all worked out to a pretty comfortable life for me and my family. We’re truly living the American Dream.

But I put myself in the place of a poor father who can’t feed his kids. There are certainly a lot of people in this situation in Mexico. No one argues that it is an impoverished nation. People who through no fault of their own are in untenable situations with no opportunity for them to work their way out. What would I do if I hadn’t been as lucky as I have been?

No money, kids who are hungry, a U.S. employer recruiting me to work and a U.S. Government that will provide me with a Tax ID number. I wouldn’t have to think about it very long. I’d take the job and provide as best I could for my family. I suspect most people would. I’d go so far as to say any decent person would. I would question the character of anyone who would make any other decision under those circumstances. In that position, not only would I make the choice to enter the U.S. illegally, if called to defend my actions I would feel confidant that I had made the only decent and logical decision.

Now, to be fair, this certainly does not paint a complete picture of the issue of illegal immigration. In fact I’m intentionally painting a one sided picture because I feel the other side gets a lot more voice. I am absolutely sure there are people coming across the boarder for deplorable reasons. I’m not an expert, but it seems there is little question that the drug trade fuels much of the traffic and I would never defend anyone actively involved in the drug trade. We hear reports on the news about the violence surrounding the drug trade at the boarder. Certainly a legitimate issue to be concerned about! But even at that, we have to ask ourselves why it is so robust. I have to believe that the extraordinary effort to get drugs into this country corresponds to an extraordinary demand for drugs by Americans.

So what’s the point? Well, to be clear, I’m not suggesting we open the boarder and allow a flood of immigrants to enter the country. I’m not suggesting the status-quo is acceptable. I’m not equating measures like the controversial Arizona law to Nazi tactics. I hope to make only two very simple points which I will try to annunciate very clearly.

Point 1- This is a complicated issue and there are a lot of elements that need to be balanced in the search for a solution. We have built an economy and government systems that rely on illegal labor. As we make changes in our immigration policy we need to take into account the forces that have created the flawed system we have now. Whatever your opinion on these issue, we all have to understand that a sudden elimination of all illegal labor would create some level of havoc in the economy. I have heard it argued that in the long run it would force employers to pay Americans decent wages.* I’m all for decent wages. But our economy isn’t in the best shape ever. If we’re going to deal with this issue we need to do it intelligently. It would be a bad idea to just throw a giant monkey wrench into things and hope for the best.

Point 2- The vast majority of the people who are here illegally have made the best decisions they could make. Not only that, they have been enticed by American employers and the Federal Government. They are not to blame for the situation- we are. Even if you feel the solution is to put a brick wall a mile high along the boarder, you have to recognize that the illegal immigrants are not evil, should not be persecuted and did not create the situation. It is not their fault that Mexico has a terrible economy. You can say that Mexico should get its act together and create more jobs. That may be. But an individual with a family to feed can not wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to solve their problem. They do what any of us would do – they find a way to get from one day to the next and provide as best they can for their family.

*I have to point out an irony I see in this argument. The immigration issue has been embraced by the most conservative Americans and the most radical solutions have been proposed by the far right wing. However these are the very same people who constantly tell us that Government should stay out of business. I would ask them why they propose a protectionist policy on immigration reform that curtails the free market solution we currently have in place. Not only that, but my personal belief is that a successful American company should share its prosperity with its workers. This is the foundation of my statement “I’m all for decent wages”. Some might call my opinions on this issue somewhat Socialist in nature. But the very same arguments I would make are at the core of the “decent wages for Americans” argument for hard line immigration policy. In other words, the most conservative Americans and those who most vocally oppose Democratic policies like Health Care reform by labeling them “Socialist” seem to support the more “Socialist” policy with regard to illegal immigration.

Just some thinking I've been doing. Thought I would share my thoughts and invite your opinions.

Thanks for listening to my rant! I hope all of us can work together as Americans to find a solution to the immigration issue, and I hope we can all respect the opinions of those we disagree with.


Ed

[finnbow]

Good read, Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. The only solution to this complex problem is "comprehensive immigration reform." However, as Dubya found out, most of his party demands a simple "solution," i.e., a wall a mile high along the border. It's a perfect non-solution. The nativists get their xenophobic ya-yas out, the business community gets cheap labor, and the GOP maintains a hot-button issue. What's not to like?

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

I was asked this question in a discussion about illegal immigration. I responded by explaining what I see as a mixed message being sent by the United States. Yes, it’s illegal to enter the United States the way many people do. But when they arrive we give them jobs, accept their money for goods, allow them to access education and health care, and in some cases allow them to get a driver’s license and sell or rent them houses. I once heard it described as if we have two signs on the boarder, one saying “keep out” and the other saying “help wanted”.

I was sure this wasn’t a complete answer to the question, but thought it covered things pretty well. But I was curious and did a little more investigation. I was surprised at what I found. For instance, I didn’t realize the Federal Government provides Tax ID numbers to illegal workers. It even goes so far as to guarantee them that any information collected in an effort to allow them to pay taxes will not be used to deport them. That seems remarkable to me. I can only interpret that behavior one way – a wink and a nod. Sure, it’s illegal, but you know, not that big a deal.

As it turns out, there’s a significant school of thought that say illegal labor is keeping Social Security and Medicare afloat. Turns out most illegal workers (I found an estimate of 75% in a credible news article) pay taxes. And many of them, not anxious to interact with the government any more than need be for fear of being deported, do not file for refunds even if they have paid more than they’re assessed. In other words, not only do they pay their share, they pay more than they would if they were U.S. Citizens.

But the image we have of illegal labor may be more fundamentally flawed than even that suggests. Many people who are detained at the boarder report that they are not coming to the United States to look for a job. They’re coming to take a job they have already been offered. That’s right. Turns out U.S. employers are actively recruiting illegal labor. Not only that, but in some cases, they’re paying to have them shepherded across the boarder.

I have a family- a wife and two fantastic kids. I’ve been really lucky to have gotten a lot of support from my parents, a great education and some lucky brakes along the way. And I think it’s fair to say I’ve put in some hard work too. It’s all worked out to a pretty comfortable life for me and my family. We’re truly living the American Dream.

But I put myself in the place of a poor father who can’t feed his kids. There are certainly a lot of people in this situation in Mexico. No one argues that it is an impoverished nation. People who through no fault of their own are in untenable situations with no opportunity for them to work their way out. What would I do if I hadn’t been as lucky as I have been?

No money, kids who are hungry, a U.S. employer recruiting me to work and a U.S. Government that will provide me with a Tax ID number. I wouldn’t have to think about it very long. I’d take the job and provide as best I could for my family. I suspect most people would. I’d go so far as to say any decent person would. I would question the character of anyone who would make any other decision under those circumstances. In that position, not only would I make the choice to enter the U.S. illegally, if called to defend my actions I would feel confidant that I had made the only decent and logical decision.

Now, to be fair, this certainly does not paint a complete picture of the issue of illegal immigration. In fact I’m intentionally painting a one sided picture because I feel the other side gets a lot more voice. I am absolutely sure there are people coming across the boarder for deplorable reasons. I’m not an expert, but it seems there is little question that the drug trade fuels much of the traffic and I would never defend anyone actively involved in the drug trade. We hear reports on the news about the violence surrounding the drug trade at the boarder. Certainly a legitimate issue to be concerned about! But even at that, we have to ask ourselves why it is so robust. I have to believe that the extraordinary effort to get drugs into this country corresponds to an extraordinary demand for drugs by Americans.

So what’s the point? Well, to be clear, I’m not suggesting we open the boarder and allow a flood of immigrants to enter the country. I’m not suggesting the status-quo is acceptable. I’m not equating measures like the controversial Arizona law to Nazi tactics. I hope to make only two very simple points which I will try to annunciate very clearly.

Point 1- This is a complicated issue and there are a lot of elements that need to be balanced in the search for a solution. We have built an economy and government systems that rely on illegal labor. As we make changes in our immigration policy we need to take into account the forces that have created the flawed system we have now. Whatever your opinion on these issue, we all have to understand that a sudden elimination of all illegal labor would create some level of havoc in the economy. I have heard it argued that in the long run it would force employers to pay Americans decent wages.* I’m all for decent wages. But our economy isn’t in the best shape ever. If we’re going to deal with this issue we need to do it intelligently. It would be a bad idea to just throw a giant monkey wrench into things and hope for the best.

Point 2- The vast majority of the people who are here illegally have made the best decisions they could make. Not only that, they have been enticed by American employers and the Federal Government. They are not to blame for the situation- we are. Even if you feel the solution is to put a brick wall a mile high along the boarder, you have to recognize that the illegal immigrants are not evil, should not be persecuted and did not create the situation. It is not their fault that Mexico has a terrible economy. You can say that Mexico should get its act together and create more jobs. That may be. But an individual with a family to feed can not wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to solve their problem. They do what any of us would do – they find a way to get from one day to the next and provide as best they can for their family.

*I have to point out an irony I see in this argument. The immigration issue has been embraced by the most conservative Americans and the most radical solutions have been proposed by the far right wing. However these are the very same people who constantly tell us that Government should stay out of business. I would ask them why they propose a protectionist policy on immigration reform that curtails the free market solution we currently have in place. Not only that, but my personal belief is that a successful American company should share its prosperity with its workers. This is the foundation of my statement “I’m all for decent wages”. Some might call my opinions on this issue somewhat Socialist in nature. But the very same arguments I would make are at the core of the “decent wages for Americans” argument for hard line immigration policy. In other words, the most conservative Americans and those who most vocally oppose Democratic policies like Health Care reform by labeling them “Socialist” seem to support the more “Socialist” policy with regard to illegal immigration.

Just some thinking I've been doing. Thought I would share my thoughts and invite your opinions.

Thanks for listening to my rant! I hope all of us can work together as Americans to find a solution to the immigration issue, and I hope we can all respect the opinions of those we disagree with.


Ed

The Kinder, Gentler Ed is a good thing.

The economy-wrecking scenario you set out is not currently possible. A recent article showed that the Obama administration considerably increased the number of illegal immigrants who are being deported, and that the increased level is the max that the system can handle as far as processing the illegal immigrants through the deportation process. Their focus is on those with criminal records - the ones who present the most risk to people living here. Even with the limited focus, the system is operating at maximum capacity.

I am troubled about employers actively recruiting workers to come here. Besides the problems that the prospective workers have with the "intermediaries" who bring them here, (A series in the Kansas City paper showed how the flesh peddlers exploit the prospective workers' desire for a better life.) the situation gives the employer tremendous leverage to exploit the workers. The employers more than likely charge the costs of transport back to the workers, and they are in the position to set wages on a take it or leave it basis, because the imported workers have no recourse. This does bring down the wage structure.

The previous article also showed that the Obama administration has quadrupled that number of employer audits for illegal workers. As the number of employers who end up being fined increases, the economic incentive to import low wage employees decreases.

All of the immigration rhetoric is simply another example of hate clouding the truth. The truth is that the federal government is doing a better job of addressing illegal immigration, focused on those engaged in the type of criminal activity that the advocates of the Arizona law have used to support their bill. Because the entire class of people coming from Mexico has been identified as another dangerous group of "them," the rabble has been easily roused about this issue - true or not.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

I saw an article a few years ago, in which an immigration agent, had advised (legal) immigrants from the Middle East to look for auto industry jobs in Detroit. Of course there aren't very many, if any of those type opportunites left in Detriot, so most of these folks ended up destitute and on welfare, or leaving to go elsewhere if they had the means to relocate. What an ass......


On the substance of Eds article;

I believe they come here because there is so much incentive. I'm sure the majority of them come here to work and even though this does bother me to some degree, it is not the principle reason why I worry about so many of them coming here. I worry more about the growing influence of the drug cartels and the crime that comes with it.

Now, I understand the "illegal" part. But to me there is a difference between a man who brings his family here to find honest work, even if they did enter illegally, and some a-hole who has come here to set up a crime ring. I think what we need to do is find a way to seperate the evil from the well intentioned. Deport the bad element, and offer those who mean no harm a legal path to citizenship.

As to the folks who seem to just want to round them all up and throw them out.......

All I can say is that I see an honest person who is simply desperately poor and just wants to come here and work as a potential asset. So maybe show that individual a little forgiveness.

Problem is; How do you go about seperating the good from the bad?

Dave

[Charles]

I'm impressed, Ed. Looks like you devoted a lot of time and trouble to your post.

I'm too tired to respond, so I'll let it go.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

I saw an article a few years ago, in which an immigration agent, had advised (legal) immigrants from the Middle East to look for auto industry jobs in Detroit. Of course there aren't very many, if any of those type opportunites left in Detriot, so most of these folks ended up destitute and on welfare, or leaving to go elsewhere if they had the means to relocate. What an ass......


On the substance of Eds article;

I believe they come here because there is so much incentive. I'm sure the majority of them come here to work and even though this does bother me to some degree, it is not the principle reason why I worry about so many of them coming here. I worry more about the growing influence of the drug cartels and the crime that comes with it.

Now, I understand the "illegal" part. But to me there is a difference between a man who brings his family here to find honest work, even if they did enter illegally, and some a-hole who has come here to set up a crime ring. I think what we need to do is find a way to seperate the evil from the well intentioned. Deport the bad element, and offer those who mean no harm a legal path to citizenship.

As to the folks who seem to just want to round them all up and throw them out.......

All I can say is that I see an honest person who is simply desperately poor and just wants to come here and work as a potential asset. So maybe show that individual a little forgiveness.

Problem is; How do you go about seperating the good from the bad?

Dave

Well, if D-Ray's info is accurate it sounds like that's what they're trying to do. I say sending back the folks with a criminal record is a reasonable way to look at it. Sure, some good folks get in trouble with the law. But if you're going to come here illegally to make money for your family, shouldn't be too much to ask that you keep your nose clean.

Originally Posted by Charles

I'm impressed, Ed. Looks like you devoted a lot of time and trouble to your post.

I'm too tired to respond, so I'll let it go.

Chas

Thanks Chas. As you know, your opinion carries weight with me. It would be much shorter if I'd spent a little more time on it. It would be a book if I'd spent a lot more. If you feel like putting some thoughts together sometime tomorrow I'd love to hear them. I'm quick to admit it's a tricky issue and needs attention. If we can all put our heads together and make some reasonable decisions we can improve the situation. But I'm afraid there is too much political gain in keeping it a divisive issue.

Take care,

Ed

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

The IRS collects tax not enforce immigration laws.

Yep, hence Bush's policy of "do nothing."

The extraordinary demand is because of our extraordinary population and extraordinary affluence allowing us to pay top prices.

So really what it boils down to is that we need to make a decision as to exactly what our policy is in relation to cheap labor. The whole drug violence thing is a complete different issue, at least to me.

Good post Ed (I know because it made my head hurt!)

[merrylander]

As a legal immigrant what I do not understand is why some will pay a coyote between 2 and 3 thousand dollars to smuggle them in. I did it all above board for less than $1500 and it would have been less than that had I not bothered with a lawyer.

As for employyers who knowingly hire them, throw them in jail. Sure it is possible to understand why someone would want a better life, but in working in that grey market for low wages they are putting Americans out of work (check the housing industry). Meanwhile the employers pocket the extra savings.

As to the better life, better than Mexico but no different than Canada except they have better cheaper healthcare.

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Good read, Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. The only solution to this complex problem is "comprehensive immigration reform." However, as Dubya found out, most of his party demands a simple "solution," i.e., a wall a mile high along the border. It's a perfect non-solution. The nativists get their xenophobic ya-yas out, the business community gets cheap labor, and the GOP maintains a hot-button issue. What's not to like?

Heck both sides went ape over Bushes' plan. But I appreciate you at least mentioning it.

I'm not sure a pragmatic solution is possible, it's so emotionally charged.

Which is a serious national security issue in this globalized age. We've got to know who's coming in.

American twilight

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by merrylander

As a legal immigrant what I do not understand is why some will pay a coyote between 2 and 3 thousand dollars to smuggle them in. I did it all above board for less than $1500 and it would have been less than that had I not bothered with a lawyer.

I'm not sure you would fit the description of the typical person who choses to enter the country illegally. I'm a little surprised by your post. I know you're a smart guy (certainly smarter than me). And you have first hand experience with the process so undoubtedly better educated on the subject than me. I can't answer your post in specifics- so I'll answer it in abstract.

I'm quite sure that if every Mexican who is here illegally had instead tried to do it legally, there would be a fraction of the number of them we have now. Now if you go back to the scenario I laid out above and assume that at least a large percentage of them came here because of an immediate and desperate need, you can see why they choose to do it other ways.

Take care,

Ed