Israel has invaded Gaza...

[finnbow]

What's particularly galling to a lot of West Bank Palestinians is that Israel has actively recruited Jewish immigrants from all over the world to their shores since 1950 when they enacted their Law of Return, whereby anybody half Jewish (at least at the mother's side) along with any child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew can immigrate. In a very short period in the early 1990's, they allowed 1.6 million Russian to immigrate.

A lot of these immigrants, due to persecution in their native lands and/or strong beliefs in the Zionist ideal, are happy to build settlements (legally or otherwise) on Palestinian lands inside the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. FWIW, many of these (sometimes illegal) settlers are American. There are now 350,000 settlers living in the West Bank and over 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. A big reason for these settlements is to establish "facts on the ground," thereby cementing Israeli dominance over these lands.

Meanwhile, any discussion of Palestinian "right of return" for refugees of the 1948 or 1967 wars is formally off-the-table in any Israel-Palestine talks. How do you think you'd feel if you were born in Hebron, Jerico, Ramallah or Bethlehem? I guarantee you'd be at little less sympathetic to Israel, its Zionist ideals, 30' concrete walls and humiliating treatment within them.

I was as strongly pro-Israel as any American until I went there the first time in 1983. I've now been there over 5 weeks on several visits and covered virtually every square inch of the place from Eilat to the Golan Heights. I've also been all over the West Bank, but never in Gaza (though very close). Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's particularly galling to a lot of West Bank Palestinians is that Israel has actively recruited Jewish immigrants from all over the world to their shores since 1950 when they enacted their Law of Return, whereby anybody half Jewish (at least at the mother's side) along with any child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew can immigrate. In a very short period in the early 1990's, they allowed 1.6 million Russian to immigrate.

A lot of these immigrants, due to persecution in their native lands and/or strong beliefs in the Zionist ideal, are happy to build settlements (legally or otherwise) on Palestinian lands inside the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. FWIW, many of these (sometimes illegal) settlers are American. There are now 350,000 settlers living in the West Bank and over 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. A big reason for these settlements is to establish "facts on the ground," thereby cementing Israeli dominance over these lands.

Meanwhile, any discussion of Palestinian "right of return" for refugees of the 1948 or 1967 wars is formally off-the-table in any Israel-Palestine talks. How do you think you'd feel if you were born in Hebron, Jerico, Ramallah or Bethlehem? I guarantee you'd be at little less sympathetic to Israel, its Zionist ideals, 30' concrete walls and humiliating treatment within them.

I was as strongly pro-Israel as any American until I went there the first time in 1983. I've now been there over 5 weeks on several visits and covered virtually every square inch of the place from Eilat to the Golan Heights. I've also been all over the West Bank, but never in Gaza (though very close). Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

Finn, I would like to complement on your post.

Although being there a few times hardly makes you an authority, is essence you have portrayed the complex nature of things which cannot be dismissed with a short term view.

Nothing is as simple as it seems at first view...especially the nature of homo sapiens to murder one another over perceived slights. We're so intelligent that we're cretins, and can't see it.

Chas

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Charles

Finn, I would like to complement on your post.

Although being there a few times hardly makes you an authority, is essence you have portrayed the complex nature of things which cannot be dismissed with a short term view.

Nothing is as simple as it seems at first view...especially the nature of homo sapiens to murder one another over perceived slights. We're so intelligent that we're cretins, and can't see it.

Chas

Thanks, stranger. With my son having now lived there for almost 2 years (supporting our State Department doing construction management in Tel Aviv), I try to keep up with what's going on over there. I go to the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz websites every day to read what's shakin' among God's Chosen People.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Thanks, stranger. With my son having now lived there for almost 2 years (supporting our State Department doing construction management in Tel Aviv), I try to keep up with what's going on over there. I go to the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz websites every day to read what's shakin' among God's Chosen People.

"Gods Chosen People"????

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

Chas

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Charles

"Gods Chosen People"????

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

Chas

I should have added a ""

[Charles]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I should have added a ""

Murdering people in the name of "God" does carry a certain amount of moral significance.

Let's us cut to the chase.

Homo sapiens are the most fierce prediators on the face of the planet.

The only difference between us and the wolf is that we need the facade of "necessary" to placate our souls.

In essence, we're wolfs who are cursed this the intelligence, along with the time necessary, to engage in the process of naval gazing. Whenever we murder each other...or anything for that matter...we need moral justification.

The wolf, on the other hand, only kills what is necessary. And doesn't loose any sleep over it.

If we're so Goddamned smart, how did we wind up being so Goddamned stupid?

Chas

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Charles

Murdering people in the name of "God" does carry a certain amount of moral significance.

Let's us cut to the chase.

Homo sapiens are the most fierce prediators on the face of the planet.

The only difference between us and the wolf is that we need the facade of "necessary" to placate our souls.

In essence, we're wolfs who are cursed this the intelligence, along with the time necessary, to engage in the process of naval gazing. Whenever we murder each other...or anything for that matter...we need moral justification.

The wolf, on the other hand, only kills what is necessary. And doesn't loose any sleep over it.

If we're so Goddamned smart, how did we wind up being so Goddamned stupid?

Chas

And we seem to admire leaders who provide the most compelling reasons to go off to war.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by Charles

If we're so Goddamned smart, how did we wind up being so Goddamned stupid?

Chas

We're just turd throwin' monkeys with advanced weaponry Chas. Too stupid to realize we killed off all the apex predators that used to feed on us.

How the heck have you been doin' you old screw? Drowning bait, I hope.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Charles

"Gods Chosen People"????

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

Chas

Precisely.

Dave

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

I don't disagree with this Finn. However, the Palestinian leadership his the intractable problem of allying itself with those who will accept nothing more that "wiping Israel off the map." Not exactly a great starting place for negotiations. Its also tough to negotiate with random rockets raining down on your country. In the meantime, the Israelis, not sinless in this conflict, have given at the negotiating table just about everything the Palestinians have demanded, only to see the offer rejected.

Its hard to come to a peaceful agreement with your enemy when your enemy will accept nothing less than your extinction.