Ukraine Heats Up

[nailer]

We need to take a step back from the Ukraine. Europe has the wherewithal to provide the training/arms/troops needed. The pulse of empire will push us forward.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by nailer

We need to take a step back from the Ukraine. Europe has the wherewithal to provide the training/arms/troops needed. The pulse of empire will push us forward.

But we won't. Just as with our "pivot toward Asia", this is all about the US being the global hegemon, Manifest Destiny 21st century style.

We have ceded the economic playing field to other nations. All we have left is the use of force and we're determined to use it whenever and where ever possible.

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything you say and imply above is true. How does that change any of what I said in the post you were responding to? Placing US, UK and Polish troops on the ground in Ukraine is a foolishly provocative act that is also doomed to fail to achieve its stated purchase...

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

Now, that's just silly, Pat.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

This deployment of a small handful of troops would be trainers needed to get the Ukrainian operators up-to-speed on the use of weapons we are thinking of providing. If the weapons don't go, the trainers don't go. Or if there's too much heat over this idea, we could transport some Ukrainians out-of-country for training somewhere else, and then they come back and train others. This way would work better, though.

The powers that be want our guys on the ground and involved.

We want to counter in real time the Russians. It is a "pissing contest".

From our modern history "advisors" have bad escalating sound.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

The powers that be want our guys on the ground and involved.

We want to counter in real time the Russians. It is a "pissing contest".

From our modern history "advisors" have bad escalating sound.

In that case, this does indeed sound like the latest thing from those wonderful people who brought you Korea and Vietnam. Except we're way to close to being up against actual Russians in this land war in Eurasia.

OK, who can tell me why direct military confrontation with a nuclear power should be avoided?

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

I tend to view Putin/Russian politics within context. And I view it dispassionately.

The USSR disintegrates. There is a vicious struggle by different factions
to capture important state assets. A faction with close ties to westerners
emerge on top...after all the westerners were the ones who were advising on the scam privatization.

One of the westernized Oligarch Berezovsky had huge influence with Yeltsin. But Yeltsin was leaving and Berezovsky wanted influence continuance
so he picked a low level former KGB guy whom he thought would be a puppet.

Putin inherited an Oligarch war. He tried to bring some order. Oligarchs must
pay tax and not unduly get involve in politics where they buy can out the system.
That did not go down well with some and they fled to London, Paris, Israel and US. Some even bought the British government.

In the meantime this was happening the west was pushing NATO on every
ex satellite country.

The Oligarch war is still on. One faction especially - the George Soros faction - has not given up. They are many players wearing many flags in the Russian streets.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

In that case, this does indeed sound like the latest thing from those wonderful people who brought you Korea and Vietnam. Except we're way to close to being up against actual Russians in this land war in Eurasia.

OK, who can tell me why direct military confrontation with a nuclear power should be avoided?

Merkel has been warning that it might get out of control. But she is suspect...presumably why her phone was bugged.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

...
In the meantime this was happening the west was pushing NATO on every
ex satellite country...

Given the USSR and Russia's past behavior vis-a-vis its neighbors and satellite states, not to mention better economic conditions in western Europe, can you blame former Warsaw Pact countries for wanting some sort of guarantee against possible future aggression by the Russian bear? Putin's behavior is proving them right.

Having traveled to the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary and East Berlin during the Cold War and having traveled to the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and eastern Germany since, I too would want nothing to do with Russia (other than trade) if I was a citizen of a former Soviet client state. Relatively speaking, Russia is damned close to a failed state compared to the modern-day Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary or the Baltic States.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Putin's behavior is proving them right.

By not being a bystander.

The British Lords were sure that he would.