Israel has invaded Gaza...

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by nailer

When did the UN gift this land to Israel? IIRC the 1947 UN resolution was a recommendation to the British on how they should divide the Mandate's territory between the Jewish and Arab residents.




Your prose tends to be inflammatory, on purpose if you ask me.




Are you anti-Palestine or pro-Israel? Your comparing a people to a state is a tell.

Being against the status quo is a popular pastime amongst us humans. What are you for?

I consider myself pro-Israel, but uncomfortable with Netanyahu's policies, which happen to include maintaining the status quo (e.g., continued settlements and "mowing the grass") while using intervention in American politics to ensure unwavering support of Israel's tactics, whatever they might be and however counterproductive they may be. I also have sympathy for the suffering of the Palestinian people, regardless of where one places the blame for their suffering (on their owned failed leadership or on Israel's heavy-handed practices).

I was discomforted to see Netanyahu's overt support of Romney in the last election, his decision to approve a controversial West Bank settlement on the eve of Kerry's recent peace overtures, as well as his outspoken unwillingness to criticize Putin's actions in Ukraine, among other things. It seems our alliance with Israel is a one-way street.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm saying that the entire land of Israel was bestowed upon them by the UN, including the land within the borders of the new Israel upon which Palestinians had lived for generations. After Palestinians fled from the dangers of the 1948 war, Israel passed a law in 1951 to appropriate their land, thereby creating Palestinian refugee camps all over the region, including Gaza.

As for stated goals of the respective parties, the stated goal of the Netanyahu coalition is to not recognize a Palestinian state on the West Bank and/or Gaza. In fact, a significant part of his coalition insist upon taking all of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), notwithstanding the fact that over 2 million Palestinian Arabs live there.

Despite your outraged responses to my posts, I'm not pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel. I'm against the status quo, which includes the inexorable construction of settlements on the West Bank and the attendant periodic "mowing the lawn" in Gaza (with our money and weapons).

Here's an interesting piece that shows it's possible to be pro-Israel, yet be against Netanyahu's policies. Strangely, it's possible to hold such views in Israel (though less so in the midst of the current war), whereas having these same views here in the USA is labelled as anti-Semitic and pro-terrorism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/op...pora-jews.html

I have no beef with your last paragraph.

As far as rights to dirt in the holy land...Jews have just as legitimate an historical basis for a claim to a share of that dirt as do muslims. Muslims however, historically do not appear interested in sharing a square inch of this dirt with a single Jew.

Witness Israel's providing control of the Temple Mount to Muslims after Israel took control of the West Bank in 1967, as opposed to Muslim refusal to allow Jews access to the Wailing Wall, and Muslim desecration of Jewish cemeteries in the West Bank between 1948 and 1967.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

I have no beef with your last paragraph.

As far as rights to dirt in the holy land...Jews have just as legitimate an historical basis for a claim to a share of that dirt as do muslims. Muslims however, historically do not appear interested in sharing a square inch of this dirt with a single Jew.

Witness Israel's providing control of the Temple Mount to Muslims after Israel took control of the West Bank in 1967, as opposed to Muslim refusal to allow Jews access to the Wailing Wall, and Muslim desecration of Jewish cemeteries in the West Bank between 1948 and 1967.

I think the Palestinians (at least those in the West Bank under Fatah) no longer feel this way and accept the reality of Israel (Abbas has formally recognized Israel's right to exist and eschews violence). The ongoing mess in Gaza seems likely to threaten the prevailing moderate POV in the West Bank though (an argument can be made that this was indeed the objective of the current violence in Gaza).

The whole situation there breaks my heart. For the most part, both Israelis and Palestinians want what everyone else in the world wants - a better life for themselves and their kids. However, leadership on both sides seem to derive their power on maintaining an adversarial and uncompromising relationship with the other.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by nailer

When did the UN gift this land to Israel? IIRC the 1947 UN resolution was a recommendation to the British on how they should divide the Mandate's territory between the Jewish and Arab residents.




Your prose tends to be inflammatory, on purpose if you ask me.




Are you anti-Palestine or pro-Israel? Your comparing a people to a state is a tell.

Being against the status quo is a popular pastime amongst us humans. What are you for?

Your prose is very argumentative, on purpose if you asked me.

You're calling 'comparing a people to a state a 'tell' is argument by innuendo.

I think your post is closer to harassment than to discussion. You're just seeking to 'score' here.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I consider myself pro-Israel, but uncomfortable with Netanyahu's policies, which happen to include maintaining the status quo (e.g., continued settlements and "mowing the grass") while using intervention in American politics to ensure unwavering support of Israel's tactics, whatever they might be and however counterproductive they may be. I also have sympathy for the suffering of the Palestinian people, regardless of where one places the blame for their suffering (on their owned failed leadership or on Israel's heavy-handed practices).

I was discomforted to see Netanyahu's overt support of Romney in the last election, his decision to approve a controversial West Bank settlement on the eve of Kerry's recent peace overtures, as well as his outspoken unwillingness to criticize Putin's actions in Ukraine, among other things. It seems our alliance with Israel is a one-way street.

Thanks for the forthright response.

I'll bow out now in order not to further my borderline harassment.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Your prose is very argumentative, on purpose if you asked me.

My post and questions were addressed to finnbow, yet you responded.

Originally Posted by donquixote99

You're calling 'comparing a people to a state a 'tell' is argument by innuendo.

You are correct, my point was indirectly suggestive.

Originally Posted by donquixote99

I think your post is closer to harassment than to discussion. You're just seeking to 'score' here.

What am I seeking to score?

I'm feeling close to harassed.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I think the Palestinians (at least those in the West Bank under Fatah) no longer feel this way and accept the reality of Israel (Abbas has formally recognized Israel's right to exist and eschews violence). The ongoing mess in Gaza seems likely to threaten the prevailing moderate POV in the West Bank though (an argument can be made that this was indeed the objective of the current violence in Gaza).

The whole situation there breaks my heart. For the most part, both Israelis and Palestinians want what everyone else in the world wants - a better life for themselves and their kids. However, leadership on both sides seem to derive their power on maintaining an adversarial and uncompromising relationship with the other.

Great post Finn on your thoughts on Israel. I would add that the annual aid to Israel can no longer be justified, they simply don't need it.

[donquixote99]

However, the aid is also a gift to our own MIC, so there's no end of support for it.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

However, the aid is also a gift to our own MIC, so there's no end of support for it.

That's pretty much exactly what it represents. $3.1 billion is "given" to Israel, with which they're obligated to buy $3.1 of our weapons systems. Quite a deal if you can get it.

[nailer]

The gift to Israel is the weapons systems.