I think they're lying. And I think they know it.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Words of wise wisdom Rob

Pete

I got to 79, well in seven more days, by realizing I had two ears and two eyes but only one mouth, the 2:1 ratio is no accident.

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

If you don't like Thomas Paine, how 'bout Franklin:

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

How about John Adams:

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

Seems clearly to be speaking of Christianity.

Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Shoot, lets go a little further along- how about Lincoln?

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”

Ah but even Ben saw the wisdom of the Bible even if he didn't believe it.

And the thought that Adams WASN'T a Christian is remarkable.

I was involved in a discussion of Jefferson many years ago, the consensus was that he did fall away (and while fallen invented 'modern' negative campaigning!) but came back when older. I don't know if that is true (the campaigning is). But, 1 of many many.

Lincoln was born in 1809

Originally Posted by merrylander

I got to 79, well in seven more days, by realizing I had two ears and two eyes but only one mouth, the 2:1 ratio is no accident.

I would do well to learn that a bit myself Sir.

Pete

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Ah but even Ben saw the wisdom of the Bible even if he didn't believe it.

So, he was an advocate ofr a Christian nation even though he thought it was bunk, even though useful bunk?

I was involved in a discussion of Jefferson many years ago, the consensus was that he did fall away (and while fallen invented 'modern' negative campaigning!) but came back when older.

"Fall away"? "Fallen"? If you want to see just how far Jefferson "strayed" read his "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".

I don't know if that is true (the campaigning is). But, 1 of many many.

If Jefferson invented negative campaigning it was by being the victim of it. Adams, that devout Christian, threw the kitchen sink at Jefferson, right down to the (accurate) rumors about Sally Hemmings.

John

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by merrylander

As I said there is collaboration, or rather collusion, that is allowing this to happen. There is nothing "liberal" about a thief or the people who aid and abet.

Systems can be run honestly, if the State legislature does not wish to do so throw them out.

Being seasoned citizens we are bombarded with the medicare thieves who absolutely guarantee us a power chair even if our insurance and medicare turn us down. Oh, and we don't need to worry about the paperwork, they will take care of it, sure because they don't want us to see what a scam they are running.

When Florence fell down the stairs because her knee gave out we approached the big name firm that advertises chirlifts - first estimate $17,000. When he saw to look on my face he "called the home office" - it came down to $13,500.

I got online and found excellent chairlifts for - first estimate $6,500. They shipped even before they got our check, and when they found it was cash and not credit card the price dropped to $6,000. There are more predatory people out their preying on seniors because they know they can screw the government in the process. Face it, like Franklin surmised, Constitutional government would work very well until we bacame so corrupt that we need a despot. There are also the honest ones like Summit who built our chairlifts. Relative piece of cake to install and the usual charge is $400 per lift, if I was younger I would become an installer, easy money.

Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

Great post.

When my Mothers Alzheimers became unmanageable for the family, we went in search of a "nursing home". We went and looked at some that ranged from scary to lavish. Well, of course we weren't about to put mom in a place that we regarded as "scary" just because it was cheap. And there was no sense in putting her in a palace either. (Her mind was gone, most of the time she thought she was in the old house, it was the 1940s/50s/60s, and we were still little kids.) Point is, a decent, yet conservative "senior care facilty" was $6,500 a month. One place we looked at was over $20,000 A MONTH! Some were as low as $3,000 a month, but I wouldn't trust them with my dog, let alone my mother. Now, Medicaid payed the lions share of that $6,500, and my father paid the rest out of his Union pension.

Point is this; I had no idea just how much money is tied up in senior care, until we went through this with my Mom. And just how incredibly expensive everything is.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

"Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

Magnificent!

I would add, however, that what amazes me are the people that I know personally who think that corruption does "wear a liberal or conservative label", and that it is decidedly "liberal". This due in no small part to the "Christian country" nonsense to which you make reference. And, where, pray tell, does that come from?

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Hundreds of millions in waste- let's examine that for a minute.

Federal Budget 2010 $3.55 Trillion.

Okay, how much is "hundreds of millions"? Let's say, what, seven hundred million. That's a big number.

700,000,000/3,550,000,000,000 = about 1.9

Not saying it doesn't matter. But if we refuse to make progress on health care due to 1.9% of the federal budget being "wasted" I think we're making a mistake. That's assuming the undocumented claim of "hundreds of millions" is accurate which it almost certainly isn't. I'm not saying we don't deal with it. Get the system in place and then work on any abuses we can. But to pass the opportunity over what in the scheme of things is so little would be a mistake.

You've all heard my rant on this before. If we want to cut spending there are only three meaningfull places to look. About 75% of the federal budget is Medicade/Medicare, Social Security and Millitary. You'll never get elected if you even hint that you would even look at possibly, maybe suggest that we should cut SS or MM. So there's only one answer. This isn't hard.

Actually, the health care reform plan is the first thing I've ever heard them talk about that starts to address any of the big three expenses. If they really succeed in making medical care less expensive it would have a substantial impact on MM.

Or we could do the responsible thing and quit whining about how much everything is and start paying our bills. When I go to Wal-Mart and buy a big screen TV, they don't much care if I think they paid too much for a Union trucker to ship the thing. They pretty much want me to pay for all of it. And I would, had I ever been to a Wal-Mart and if I owned a big screen TV. We need to run the country the same way. No money? No war.

[Fast_Eddie]

The most cursory investigation of the words of our Founding Fathers and the written works that influnced their opinions leaves absolutely no doubt at all that their intent was to create a country free from any national religion and indeed shows many of them were personally very suspect of any religion. Shoot, some of them appear to be down right atheist. Jefferson in particular was outspoken about his beliefs and mistrust of religion.

[piece-itpete]

My brothers, examine those quotes carefully and you will find they aren't talking about Christianity or the Bible - as experts on government (as they largely were) they were talking about 'organized' religion of ANY stripe.

Now they would undoubtabley be striking at the religion of science & government.

READ SOURCE MATERIAL! It's obvious. Think about my current sig. And look at their actions. There were 3 national calls to a day of prayer and fasting during the Revolutionary war by the Continental Congress. 29 of the 56 signatories of the Declaration had ecumenical degrees (they were pastors). There has always - always - been a Christian Chaplin, paid by the Congress, at Congress. They authorized the 1st legal printing of the Bible here for pete's sake. How does this jive with the current mantra?

Sorry for going off topic so badly, I'll back away slowly

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

READ SOURCE MATERIAL!

I'd suggest you start with Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason".

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

My brothers, examine those quotes carefully and you will find they aren't talking about Christianity or the Bible - as experts on government (as they largely were) they were talking about 'organized' religion of ANY stripe.

Some, yes. Some, no. The Treaty of Tripoli specifically addresses the question of whether we are or are not a Christian nation. It states in so many words that we are not.

Now they would undoubtabley be striking at the religion of science & government.

Right! Those Luddites like Tommy Jefferson and Benjie Franklin woulda been on those "Evolutionists" like white on rice!

READ SOURCE MATERIAL! It's obvious. Think about my current sig.

I think the quotes Fast Eddie posted could be considered "source material". If by source material, you mean the Constitution, there isn't even a mention of God in it. The Declaration of Independence does mention God but not in a way that could be construed as an acknowledgment of his authority. Also, the Declaration of Independence wasn't written by the US Government. It was a manifesto written by rebels.

And look at their actions. There were 3 national calls to a day of prayer and fasting during the Revolutionary war by the Continental Congress.

We still have them. They're cultural but not governmental.

29 of the 56 signatories of the Declaration had ecumenical degrees (they were pastors).

So? None were women, by the way. Does that make us a male nation?

There has always - always - been a Christian Chaplin, paid by the Congress, at Congress. They authorized the 1st legal printing of the Bible here for pete's sake. How does this jive with the current mantra?

This one's a little tougher for me. That Chaplin bit has always bothered me. I think it walks right up to the edge of being an unconstitutional commingling of religion and government. Printing the bible doesn't really mean much, though.

John