For those among us.....

[BlueStreak]

...who think the world has changed so much since 1971.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b24m6mCBn0E&feature=related

This video is somewhat dated, but you can substitute Tea Party activists for Anti-war protesters, and voila', there it is. Heck, judging by the age of so many of the Tea Partiers, they might even be the same folks.....

Regards,
Dave

[Boreas]

...who think the world has changed so much since 1971.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b24m6mCBn0E&feature=related

This video is somewhat dated, but you can substitute Tea Party activists for Anti-war protesters, and voila', there it is. Heck, judging by the age of so many of the Tea Partiers, they might even be the same folks.....

Regards,
Dave

Frankly, I find the idea that some of the Tea Party protesters are retreaded 60s radicals bizarre. The Tea Party uses the same sort of street theater tactics that the anti-war movement and the ban the bomb movement used but that's where the similarity ends.

John

[BlueStreak]

Frankly, I find the idea that some of the Tea Party protesters are retreaded 60s radicals bizarre. The Tea Party uses the same sort of street theater tactics that the anti-war movement and the ban the bomb movement used but that's where the similarity ends.

John

Does seem to be quite a stretch, to say they are the same people. Although it is possible, people do change, John.

All I meant to say was that the turmoil never ends. The fight never ends. There are battles won and battles lost, but the war never ends.
The song mentions social issues, war, economic concerns, etc. Many of which we still fight over today, much as we did 40 years ago. Another of my attempts to demonstrate that "The good old days" (Pick an era.) are a myth.

The 1920s? Prohibition, the rise of organized crime, a volatile economy that collapsed, rose to incredible heights, then collapsed again, Klansmen marching by the tens of thousands on Pennsylvania Avenue---Not quite the idyllic scene that Beck was trying to portray it as the other night, Huh?

The 1950s? Jim Crow, Cold War, labor strife................

"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do............."

Dave

[d-ray657]

Do you realize that tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of the Kent State shootings? Less than two weeks after that the the police opened fire on a dormitory at Jackson State in Mississippi, killing two and wounding twelve others. I wonder if either of those anniversaries will be mentioned on Fox. I would hope that the hateful rhetoric that is going on now can be calmed before things reach that state again. The irony in this case is that the protesters are carrying arms now, whereas the murdered kids in Ohio and Mississippi were advocating peace.

I kinda have a hankering for putting on Steve Miller's Jackson/Kent Blues - on the same album as Industrial Military Complex Hex. This is the kind of great stuff he did before the Joker got to him.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Sandy G]

"America was stunned on May 4, 1970...When rally turned to riot up at Kent State University...They said the students scared the guards, tho the troops were battle-dressed...4 Brothers earned a new degree-The Bachelor of Bullets...." Still remember the pic of that girl kneeling behind a dead guy all laid out, Looking at him in horror...Think I remember she wasn't a student at Kent State, she was a 17-yr-old hiskule senior who knew the guy, & just got caught up in history.

[Boreas]

http://www.bartcop.com/kent-state-massacre.jpg

Then

[Boreas]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/8/12/1250079504483/William-Kostnic-wears-a-9-001.jpg

and now.

John

[Sandy G]

http://www.bartcop.com/kent-state-massacre.jpg

Then

Yep, that's the one, John.

[BlueStreak]

Kent, Ohio. That's my neck of the woods. My Brother Johns property borders the University. I was very young, so I don't remember much. But my oldest brother, Ed, has a friend who was a Kent City cop at the time, and he was on the campus when the shooting occured. To this day he'll tell you that those kids were doing nothing more than being obnoxious kids. And that some of the Guardsmen (and cops) hated hippies and were itching for an excuse, if ya know what I mean. He turned in his badge later that same day.

Dave

I just learned on FauxNews that the protesters fired the first shots...........Of course, what was I expecting when I tuned in to FauxNews? I'm shocked that they didn't have evidence that put Obama in the crowd. Sure, he was seven years old, but at that age one can still pull a trigger.:rolleyes:

Dave

[merrylander]

There was something on the news about whether someone in charge gave the order to shoot. Seeing the film where they all dropped to one knee and opened fire it sure looked less than an unplanned action.

[d-ray657]

There was something on the news about whether someone in charge gave the order to shoot. Seeing the film where they all dropped to one knee and opened fire it sure looked less than an unplanned action.

You wonder if this was one of those orders that the "oathkeepers" wouldn't obey.

Regards,

D-Ray

[d-ray657]

Here is a link to the Steve Miller song I mentioned earlier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDb7FIsNnso

That album also included "Never kill another man."

The more famous song is from CSNY, "Ohio."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFa1Okb0V8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv6kwG4BhC8

The only modern band I know of that writes as politically relevant music as Neil Young is Rage Against the Machine.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

I just learned on FauxNews that the protesters fired the first shots...........Of course, what was I expecting when I tuned in to FauxNews? I'm shocked that they didn't have evidence that put Obama in the crowd. Sure, he was seven years old, but at that age one can still pull a trigger.:rolleyes:

Dave

I know, but here goes anyways. Bump.

[d-ray657]

I know, but here goes anyways. Bump.

You have to be kidding me.:mad: The kids had a weapon that threw sandstones? Where in the world did they get that information. From the guy who gave the order to shoot?

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Although it's a terrible shame there's a few things that aren't commonly mentioned:

1) The National Guard at the time wasn't the surrogate army it is today and those guys just came back from a confrontation with a steelworkers strike.

2) Those troublemaking kids (and in honesty most were probably simply that) just terrorized the (then) sleepy backwater of Kent and burnt down the ROTC building. There were rumors that the Weathermen were there and reports of people on rooftops carrying sticks (to look like snipers).

My take, folks like the Weathermen were very happy those kids were dead. Ayers probably was so pleased he bombed something in joy.

A terrible thing for sure.

Pete

PS - See? Ayers = Obama :)

[Boreas]

I just learned on FauxNews that the protesters fired the first shots...........Of course, what was I expecting when I tuned in to FauxNews?

That actually may be true. There was a part-time student by the name of Terry Norman cruising around that day taking photos of protesters and wearing a gas mask and a sidearm. Norman was believed to be working undercover for both the Campus Police and the FBI as an informant and agent provocateur. He is also believed to have been responsible for firing the first shot.

John

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_Shootings

[merrylander]

Given our history of armed strikebreakers killing mineworkers and other such events in our past I am not surprised someone is attempting to lay the blame on the protesters, but my BS meter just slammed the needle agisnst the stop.

[Zeke]

A professional armed force has little business cutting down an unarmed resistance, given ANY reasonable alternative: it's exceedingly mercenary and/or World Police. (That said, it gives me yet another excuse to relate how Tea Baggers are idiots.)

Do they not understand:

1. They'd never sustain action against our professional army.
2. They brandish arms, so we'd have no choice but to be, ahem, "lethal" if force were necessary.

Basically, in dispute of a 100% legal election, they're calling down the thunder.

DUMB.

[piece-itpete]

Agreed Rob, but just the same I ultimately blame the parents.

If kids were smashing windows and burning down buildings in our neighborhoods we'd be unhappy.

Add the radical 'peaceful' hippies like the Weathermen and you get some very jumpy folks. People were just plain scared.

Pete

[Boreas]

Given our history of armed strikebreakers killing mineworkers and other such events in our past I am not surprised someone is attempting to lay the blame on the protesters, but my BS meter just slammed the needle agisnst the stop.

During the 60s and 70s the FBI ran a program called Cointelpro which was designed to infiltrate organizations and movements that J. Edgar Hoover didn't approve of. The use of agents provocateur was widespread. Many, even most, of the people calling for violence from within groups like SDS, SNCC, the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, etc. were believed to be working for the FBI. This has been confirmed in some cases by information obtained through FOIAs and from the testimony of former agents.

John

[piece-itpete]

Ayers was working for the FBI?

Pete

[Boreas]

Ayers was working for the FBI?

Pete


Absolutely. Not only that but he and Edgar were butt buddies.

John

[merrylander]

Agreed Rob, but just the same I ultimately blame the parents.

If kids were smashing windows and burning down buildings in our neighborhoods we'd be unhappy.

Add the radical 'peaceful' hippies like the Weathermen and you get some very jumpy folks. People were just plain scared.

Pete

Sure blame the parents, let's see they both work to afford the roof over their heads. Did they go to PTA meetings? hell no they were not even home from work yet.

Don't forget, we live in a different time, my mother did not work outside the home, well except for the church socials. She sure worked inside the home, that's what made it a home.

How many families sat down together for dinner, even back then. Social systems are different today, far too much outside the home stuff and more and more experts suggesting even more crap to keep the kids outside the home.

Burn down the ROTC building, sounds like a good idea to me. Look at how we train our military, brainwash them till you have a clean slate then teach them how to be killers. Then when you discharge them don't bother undoing what you have done. Think back to WW II, we barely taught them how to march in formation and how to shoot a rifle. the WW II GI Joe was the most talented, imagintive soldier extant.

[piece-itpete]

I figured you'd get the smashing windows and burning buildings thing.

If a kid doesn't have the sense to leave when the National Guard shows up, I guess it's their own fault.

Pete

PS I'm proud of our kids in combat. I live next to an active Army guy and I'm not worried he's going to go postal.

[piece-itpete]

Absolutely. Not only that but he and Edgar were butt buddies.

John

Rotflmao!!!

Pete

[merrylander]

I figured you'd get the smashing windows and burning buildings thing.

If a kid doesn't have the sense to leave when the National Guard shows up, I guess it's their own fault.



So kill them because they did not leave.:eek:

[Boreas]

If a kid doesn't have the sense to leave when the National Guard shows up, I guess it's their own fault.

After Kent State and Jackson State, yes, but you have to put this in context. Before 1970 it was inconceivable to most of us that our National Guard would fire on us. There was just no precedent for it.

I myself participated in campus demonstrations where the National Guard was present. Until May of 1970 I had no reason to fear the Guard. I figured on being teargassed (and I was) but the idea of being shot just never entered my mind.

And this was AFTER I'd been on the other end of things as an infantry soldier guarding the Pentagon during the '67 March and patrolling the Streets of Washington, DC in April of '68 after Dr. King had been assassinated. I thought I knew what to expect because I knew how I'd been trained and how I and my fellows had behaved in similar circumstances and worse.

John

[piece-itpete]

I understand and do NOT agree with the shootings! Terrible.

But I see a certain spin. We get flooded with this story every year 'roundabout here and not once does anyone mention regular folks in Kent being scared, and not once do the radical bombers get mentioned. That's all.

Pete

[Charles]

Here is a link to the Steve Miller song I mentioned earlier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDb7FIsNnso

That album also included "Never kill another man."

The more famous song is from CSNY, "Ohio."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFa1Okb0V8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv6kwG4BhC8

The only modern band I know of that writes as politically relevant music as Neil Young is Rage Against the Machine.

Regards,

D-Ray

I'll tell you Don, I must be 180 out with your choice of music. I like it smooth, my nerves are in bad enough shape as is.

The last thing I want to hear is someone with a message.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

I just learned on FauxNews that the protesters fired the first shots...........Of course, what was I expecting when I tuned in to FauxNews? I'm shocked that they didn't have evidence that put Obama in the crowd. Sure, he was seven years old, but at that age one can still pull a trigger.:rolleyes:

Dave

There was a time when I would have laughed at the thought that a television network could put Howard Beale on the air and try to re-wright history. Oddly, I'm not laughing anymore.

[BlueStreak]

Before 1970 it was inconceivable to most of us that our National Guard would fire on us. There was just no precedent for it.


Yes there was. Lookat my Avatar. It's a picture of the National Guard pointing bayonettes at striking workers in the 1920s. And there are scores more examples to be found, prior to the 1960s, John.

Regards,
Dave

[Boreas]

Yes there was. Lookat my Avatar. It's a picture of the National Guard pointing bayonettes at striking workers in the 1920s. And there are scores more examples to be found, prior to the 1960s, John.

Regards,
Dave

You're right, Dave, and I should have remembered. A while back I posted something about the murderous suppression of coal strikes by the National Guard in places like Ludlow, CO.

John

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://popup.lala.com/popup/937593233374485053&ei=-PrgS5zYFob49ATA7qmuCQ&sa=X&oi=music_play_track&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAcQ0wQoADAA&usg=AFQjCNFvM04eWwU053gS_KuOUl4OXtzV_Q

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Ludlow_The_Masses_June1914.jpg

[BlueStreak]

You're right, Dave, and I should have remembered. A while back I posted something about the murderous suppression of coal strikes by the National Guard in places like Ludlow, CO.

John

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Ludlow_The_Masses_June1914.jpg

Yep. The "Coalfield Wars". They actually spread across the country, anywhere the UMW was trying to organize. A good "Coalfield War" movie is "Matewan".

I just had a thought; I wonder if we'll ever hear Beck talk about the anti-union violence that took place in the "Coalfield Wars", "The Little Steel Strike of 1937", "Homestead Riot" or any of the numerous COMPANY sponsered acts of violence that have occured in this country? My guess is..........NO.:rolleyes:

Dave

[Boreas]

Yep. The "Coalfield Wars". They actually spread across the country, anywhere the UMW was trying to organize. A good "Coalfield War" movie is "Matewan".

"Matewan" is one of my favorite movies. That wasn't the Guard, though. I think it was Pinkertons.

I just had a thought; I wonder if we'll ever hear Beck talk about the anti-union violence that took place in the "Coalfield Wars", "The Little Steel Strike of 1937", "Homestead Riot" or any of the numerous COMPANY sponsered acts of violence that have occured in this country? My guess is..........NO.:rolleyes:

Dave

My guess too.

John

[BlueStreak]

That wasn't the Guard, though. I think it was Pinkertons.
John

Or "Baldwins", can't remember which.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

"Matewan" is one of my favorite movies.

John

There was a documentary back in the '80s called, "Even the Heavens Weep."
And excellent show about the Coalfield Wars. But, I can't seem to find any mention of it anywhere. I remember watching it with my Dad. Have you seen it?

Dave

[Boreas]

There was a documentary back in the '80s called, "Even the Heavens Weep."
And excellent show about the Coalfield Wars. But, I can't seem to find any mention of it anywhere. I remember watching it with my Dad. Have you seen it?

Dave

No, I haven't. I'll have to look for it.

And I think it was Baldwins.

John

[Boreas]

Out of print. Here's a link to a used VHS:

http://www.amazon.com/EVEN-HEAVENS-WEEP-HUNTINGTON-CHARLESTON/dp/B001W429SO

John

[piece-itpete]

I thought about this last nite, and have come to the conclusion my gut was right. Here's why:

A well bred kid doesn't riot.

Pete

[Boreas]

A well bred kid doesn't riot.

Pete

Eugenics?

Or do you mean a well reared kid?

I guess if we had always been "well bred kids" we'd still be a British colony. Whaddya think about that, Pete?

John

[piece-itpete]

Are you pulling my leg?

Pete

[merrylander]

No he is not.

[piece-itpete]

OK THEN:

A WELL RAISED child wouldn't riot.

Sheesh.

Pete

[Boreas]

OK THEN:

A WELL RAISED child wouldn't riot.

Sheesh.

Pete

Define riot. Were the kids at Kent State who protested our illegal invasion of Cambodia - but who had nothing to do with burning the ROTC building - rioting? Did they deserve to be shot?

Were the people who threw snowballs at British troops on Boston Commons rioting? Did they deserve to be shot?

Maybe their mothers should have been the ones to be shot for not raising them well.

John

[piece-itpete]

Snowballs, bricks, same thing? Anyway it's apples an oranges unless you think they were all about to attempt to overthrow the US government by force. Heck if time has proven anything it's that boomers can't follow through on anything :p

There is a big difference between the well bred black kids who protested a government policy they disagreed with by peaceful civil disobedience, and the spoiled suburban kids who broke out windows in Kent, no?

Which suits the whole peaceful hippie myth anyway - civil disobedience, or throwing bricks and smashing windows?

Once again, I am not saying they should've been shot. Just in case that's been forgotten. But they are hardly martyrs imho.

Pete

[merrylander]

Near as I recall I saw one of those 'rioters' sticking a flower in one of the guards rifle barrel, now that was extreme provocation.:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

That's much more martyr-like Rob :)

I looked up to them as a kid. But here in Cleveland we have a poignant reminder of how things go wrong in front of the Cleveland Art Museum.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cleveland_Museum_of_Art_-_damaged_Thinker.jpg

It seems like brains are hard to come by!

Pete

[merrylander]

Pete there are always anarchists and such like who happily use otherwise peaceful demonstrations for their own purposes. If you were watching the news last night you probably saw it happening in Greece. What started as a one day general strike became violent when the goons did their thing.

Mind you the people there do need to wake up and smell the roses, retirement at 55 on full salary is not only untenable but unnecessary. When I finally retired it was from a $75,000 a year salary, yet we are living better now than we did before retirement. All the stress has gone, the expenses of working are gone, many a**holes are out of my life. Yesterday Florence went for a physical. Doctor simply does not understand how two people of our age can be so healthy. Oh, and we have better health insurance than that shitty Aetna group was providing where I worked.

Sorry to get off track but I really do not understand their thinking.

[piece-itpete]

Agreed, but if it were peaceful to begin with the Guard would never have been called. To use the black folks again (boy that sounds bad, doesn't it?) they policed themselves and did a darn good job of it.

I'm not surprised at the Greeks, the ruling classes over there seem to enjoy telling the unwashed masses whatever they want to hear, so the bill came due and the masses are upset. What scares me about it is, what if WE follow suit and crash?

I envy your retirement Rob! I figure I'll die in the traces :)

Pete

PS 'Ruling classes, unwashed masses,' sounds like there could be a protest song in there.

[Boreas]

Agreed, but if it were peaceful to begin with the Guard would never have been called.

That's simply not true. I participated in quite a few campus demos. All were non-violent. The Guard was there anyway. They teargassed us because we refused to disperse, not because we were becoming violent.

To use the black folks again (boy that sounds bad, doesn't it?) they policed themselves and did a darn good job of it.

If you're talking about SCLC, yes, they stuck heroically to their tactic of non-violent resistance. There were, however, violent riots in Watts, Newark, Detroit.... in fact, 125 cities in 1967 during what came to be known as "The Long Hot Summer". Then in 1968, after Dr. King was assassinated, there were riots all over the country.

I'm not surprised at the Greeks, the ruling classes over there seem to enjoy telling the unwashed masses whatever they want to hear, so the bill came due and the masses are upset. What scares me about it is, what if WE follow suit and crash?

There's a lot more to it than that, Pete. Google "Goldman Sachs Greece" and be prepared to be amazed, horrified, disgusted and ashamed.

John

[piece-itpete]

The local paper said that the National Guard was called in after the rioting, and yes I was holding up the SCLC as an example.

Someone once said something like, no law without order, no freedom without law.

I'll run that Google search, thanks!

Pete

[merrylander]

Yeah GS sure has a lot to answer for, Blankfein should change his name to Gekko.

[Boreas]

Yeah GS sure has a lot to answer for, Blankfein should change his name to Gekko.

Blankfein deserves to be locked away forever.

John

[piece-itpete]

Googled. So Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government pull an Enron?

Pete

[Boreas]

Googled. So Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government pull an Enron?

Pete

And then bet against the investments they sold to the Greek government.

http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-shorted-greek-debt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

John

[BlueStreak]

And then bet against the investments they sold to the Greek government.

http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-shorted-greek-debt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

John

Oh, so ours isn't the only economy those goons sent spiraling into the abyss?
Nice. Great way to make friends and influence people...........

No wonder Beck is trying so hard to prove it was Woodrow Wilson and Jane Fonda and Shreck that caused it all. Wonder how much they're paying him?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

And then bet against the investments they sold to the Greek government.

http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-shorted-greek-debt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

John

Smart guys.

Pete

[Boreas]

Smart guys.

Pete

You're okay with this?

Do "moral and religious people" behave this way?

John

[merrylander]

John surely you heard about the time Diogenes showed up on Wall Street, they stole his lamp.

[piece-itpete]

The Greeks (the ruling class anyway) knew they were crap, designed to evade EU restrictions, so why not? I'm not saying it was right. Think about it.

Rob - but was he surprised? :D

Pete