What difference does it really make?

[BlueStreak]

I have some questions. Really. No comments, just a few questions.

What difference does it really make whether the 9/11 terrorists are tried in a millitary tribunal, or a Federal Court?

If either one ends in the same sentence, who cares?

Do you think the whole thing is just more rediculous political posturing?

Dave

[merrylander]

I gather that the tribunal had run into difficulties of some sort and had reached an impass otherwise they would have been hung by now.

So try them in New York then hang them.

[Boreas]

I gather that the tribunal had run into difficulties of some sort and had reached an impass otherwise they would have been hung by now.

So try them in New York then hang them.

One of the obstacles they faced was near insurrection within the JAG Corps. These tribunals were an affront to any legitimate judicial system and the JAG officers knew it and wanted no part of it.

As for the argument that bringing these people to the US for trial places us all in mortal danger, that's just more Bush Era fear mongering. The defendants themselves offer no danger wherever they're tried. As for their supporters, having the trials conducted at Guantanamo actually gives them more excuse to act against us. Having fair trials conducted under the aegis of a legitimate judicial system gives them less.

EDIT: Not that they would see a distinction here and, really, that's the point. They don't need no steenkin' 'scuses to attack us if they want to. Whether we try these people or where we try them makes no never mind to them at all.

John

[BlueStreak]

Oh, I know. It's an extension of the "OMG, Obamas gonna bring the terrorists to my town! Oooo!!!! Hide the kids in the basement and get me my Glock!!!"

As if they're just going to be released to roam free and toss anthrax about like wedding rice.

I'm beggining to think our countries name should be changes to "The United States of Moronica".

Well, so much for me not making any comments.:rolleyes:

Dave

[merrylander]

It is the FUD principle, heard Pat Buchanan on TV pontificating on this very subject. Old Pat must have grown up next door to a major airport, never speaks below a shout.

[Boreas]

It is the FUD principle, heard Pat Buchanan on TV pontificating on this very subject. Old Pat must have grown up next door to a major airport, never speaks below a shout.

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt have been mainstays of the Republican Party for decades. In the beginning the target was mostly communists but really any "alien" group, whether racial, ethnic or national. Since the "Gingrich Devolutuion" of the mid-90s, however, it has come to mean any and every group identifiable as "not like us". That includes their domestic political opponents and people with whom they have religious differences.

It's no longer sufficient for Republicans to disagree with the other side of the aisle. Now it's essential that the opposition be hated, reviled and feared. People like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Virginia Fox, Glenn Beck, Lou Dobbs and about half the Georgia Congressional Delegation are more and more using the rhetoric of violence and insurrection when discussing the Democratic party and Obama Administration.

There will, I fear, be Hell to pay before long and when it does all those responsible for fomenting it will do what Beck has already done and deny responsibility for the "nuts" who take his words to extremes.

John

[merrylander]

You left out that charming blond Ann Coulter, now there is a real piece of work.

Coincidence, I had always liked H.L. Mencken and here I am within a hop, skip and a jump of Charm City, his hometown. Another one I liked was Dorothy Parker, I seem drawn to all the sarcastic ones.:D

[Boreas]

You left out that charming blond Ann Coulter, now there is a real piece of work.

Coincidence, I had always liked H.L. Mencken and here I am within a hop, skip and a jump of Charm City, his hometown. Another one I liked was Dorothy Parker, I seem drawn to all the sarcastic ones.:D

Charm City is where I grew up so Mencken has always been more or less a local hero of mine. I admire Dorothy Parker as well and another member of the Algonquin Round Table, Robert Benchley. (Funnily enough, I lived in Princeton for a while too and while there met Robert's son Peter who wrote "Jaws".)

I gather that, as much as we might like the written words of Mr. M and Mrs. P, we probably would not have liked them very much as people. They were apparently pretty tough to be around.

John

[merrylander]

So are you heading back this way?

[Boreas]

So are you heading back this way?

Workin' on it. Took me ten years to figure it out but I'm not cut out to be a Left Coaster, unless you're talking about The Great White North, (Coo Loo coo coo coo coo coo coo!). I love BC but I'm too old to emigrate, eh?

Mmmmm............. Nanaimo bars!

John

[Sandy G]

The only thing wrong w/Baltimore is that its FULL of Bawltimorons...My parents were stations at Edgewood Army Chemical Center right after they were married in '50. Mama was never in the service, she just was a civilian worker.

[Boreas]

The only thing wrong w/Baltimore is that its FULL of Bawltimorons...My parents were stations at Edgewood Army Chemical Center right after they were married in '50. Mama was never in the service, she just was a civilian worker.

Well, that's mighty friendly of you, Sandy!

Edgewood Arsenal is actually about 15 miles north of Bawlmer on an island in the Chesapeake Bay. The area has been sorta absorbed by the Baltimore suburbs now but in the '50s it was pretty countrified, a mix of farms and inexpensive summer cottages along all the creeks and estuaries of the Bay.

John

[BlueStreak]

"There will, I fear, be Hell to pay before long and when it does all those responsible for fomenting it will do what Beck has already done and deny responsibility for the "nuts" who take his words to extremes.

John"

So, once these guys have sent their minions to their deaths trying to fight the U.S. Military with their small caliber arms, and they are brought to trial, will it be a Military Tribunal or Civilian Court?:D

Dave

[merrylander]

Workin' on it. Took me ten years to figure it out but I'm not cut out to be a Left Coaster, unless you're talking about The Great White North, (Coo Loo coo coo coo coo coo coo!). I love BC but I'm too old to emigrate, eh?

Mmmmm............. Nanaimo bars!

John

Hell I did it at 53, fell in love with this lady and she loved her country deeply so I thought I would give it a shot. Still working on it, the country that is. No question but that the lady is everything any man could ask for, but she is all mine so y'all are out of luck.:D

[Charles]

I have some questions. Really. No comments, just a few questions.

What difference does it really make whether the 9/11 terrorists are tried in a millitary tribunal, or a Federal Court?

If either one ends in the same sentence, who cares?

Do you think the whole thing is just more rediculous political posturing?

Dave

To the best of my understanding, in a civilian court the military may be required to disclose sensitive information, which is not a problem in a military court.

My quick response in a nutshell. The situation is more complex.

Chas

[Charles]

"There will, I fear, be Hell to pay before long and when it does all those responsible for fomenting it will do what Beck has already done and deny responsibility for the "nuts" who take his words to extremes.

John"

So, once these guys have sent their minions to their deaths trying to fight the U.S. Military with their small caliber arms, and they are brought to trial, will it be a Military Tribunal or Civilian Court?:D

Dave

Do you expect this be the conclusion?

I don't see that either side wants to start a shooting war.

2010 will be interesting.

Chas

[Boreas]

Do you expect this be the conclusion?

I don't see that either side wants to start a shooting war.

2010 will be interesting.

Chas

I don't necessarily see pitched battles between US forces and right wing militias but I do anticipate that we'll see a lot more of the sorts of mass killings, bombings, etc. that we've already seen from right wing fanatics. I think we could see some assassinations too.

Another thing of potentially greater significance - and danger - is the infiltration of our military by Neo-Nazi, skinhead and militant Christianists. It has already happened. The Army and Marines have seen a significant influx of white supremacists and the Air Force Academy has been virtually taken over by militant Christian Fundamentalists. I worry about the "reliability" of a military which is so polluted by extremists.

John

[BlueStreak]

Do you expect this be the conclusion?

I don't see that either side wants to start a shooting war.

2010 will be interesting.

Chas

Well, none of the politicians, perhaps. And I don't believe many average Americans want to see any violence. I know I don't. Personally, you may disagree, but I don't believe anyone in the present day left would resort to such a thing.

But, I have to say in all seriousness Charles, that I have to agree with John.

I have heard some disturbing stuff coming from the mouths of people I know.
I personally know people who went out and bought more guns and ammo after Obama was elected, because they're waiting for "the shooting to start".
Not hear-say, but coming from coworkers, neighbors, friends and family.
Then I watch and listen to what people like Palin, Beck, and Hannity are telling them and it doesn't take much of a stretch at all to see where it's coming from.

I believe these people are pushing the bounds of ethical behavior. There are ways for everyone to speak their minds without fomenting hatred. When a politician or pundit fails to discourage hateful violent speech they are, by default, encouraging it. The old "Well, I didn't tell them to say that." dodge doesn't hold any water. Allowing it to go on at a rally or a meeting without at least asking people to be civil is as good as condoning it, as far as I'm concerned.

And these guys are "testing the fences" everyday. Just because I'm a lefty doesn't mean I don't listen in on Limbaugh, Boortz, et al. Back in my Republican days I listened to these guys all of the time. Then they mostly used reason. But I heard it gradually evolving towards demonization, villification, and belittlement until I could no longer stand it. That was ten years ago. Now it has gotten completely absurd, IMHO. And it needs to stop.
They can still speak their minds without all of the theatrics and derogatory hyperbole, people have been doing that for thousands of years.

Have a clementine evening!

Dave

[Charles]

I don't necessarily see pitched battles between US forces and right wing militias but I do anticipate that we'll see a lot more of the sorts of mass killings, bombings, etc. that we've already seen from right wing fanatics. I think we could see some assassinations too.

Another thing of potentially greater significance - and danger - is the infiltration of our military by Neo-Nazi, skinhead and militant Christianists. It has already happened. The Army and Marines have seen a significant influx of white supremacists and the Air Force Academy has been virtually taken over by militant Christian Fundamentalists. I worry about the "reliability" of a military which is so polluted by extremists.

John

The AFA has been overtaken by militant Christians? Along with the Army and the Marines? Maybe you know something that I don't.

It appears to me that the problem seems to be coming from Islamist radicals at this point. And the far left wing.

Blaming radicalism on the "right wing" is nothing more than using them for a straw man. The right wing has their bad actors, but what exactly have they done?

Times and places, my friend. I suspect that f you give some consideration to the actual facts as to who has done what, you will find that the "Radical VRWC's" hand has been overplayed by the media.

Chas

[BlueStreak]

Uh, as I said, I pay more attention to what those around me are spouting, then I look to see where it is coming from. And it is coming from the media.

(Remember; "The media" encompasses both left and right. Does it not?)

P.s. I live right smack dab in "Radical VRWC" land, and no, it is not overplayed.

Dave

[Charles]

Well, none of the politicians, perhaps. And I don't believe many average Americans want to see any violence. I know I don't. Personally, you may disagree, but I don't believe anyone in the present day left would resort to such a thing.

But, I have to say in all seriousness Charles, that I have to agree with John.

I have heard some disturbing stuff coming from the mouths of people I know.
I personally know people who went out and bought more guns and ammo after Obama was elected, because they're waiting for "the shooting to start".
Not hear-say, but coming from coworkers, neighbors, friends and family.
Then I watch and listen to what people like Palin, Beck, and Hannity are telling them and it doesn't take much of a stretch at all to see where it's coming from.

I believe these people are pushing the bounds of ethical behavior. There are ways for everyone to speak their minds without fomenting hatred. When a politician or pundit fails to discourage hateful violent speech they are, by default, encouraging it. The old "Well, I didn't tell them to say that." dodge doesn't hold any water. Allowing it to go on at a rally or a meeting without at least asking people to be civil is as good as condoning it, as far as I'm concerned.

And these guys are "testing the fences" everyday. Just because I'm a lefty doesn't mean I don't listen in on Limbaugh, Boortz, et al. Back in my Republican days I listened to these guys all of the time. Then they mostly used reason. But I heard it gradually evolving towards demonization, villification, and belittlement until I could no longer stand it. That was ten years ago. Now it has gotten completely absurd, IMHO. And it needs to stop.
They can still speak their minds without all of the theatrics and derogatory hyperbole, people have been doing that for thousands of years.

Have a clementine evening!

Dave

Lotta hate in this world, ain't there Dave.

I pretty much agree with everything that you have just said.

Especially the "been going on for thousands of years" part.

Sadly, that doesn't give me much confidence for the hope of a better future.

We're animals, just smart ones, and we run in packs.

Being a lone wolf sort, it bewilders me at times.

I could speculate on the utlimate answer, but it's a moot point. It will have to be enacted by the general population.

Hagel was correct in his theory that war was the natural state, people only use peace as a time to build up for the next war.

What else it new?

Chas

[BlueStreak]

Lotta hate in this world, ain't there Dave.

I pretty much agree with everything that you have just said.

Especially the "been going on for thousands of years" part.

Sadly, that doesn't give me much confidence for the hope of a better future.

We're animals, just smart ones, and we run in packs.

Being a lone wolf sort, it bewilders me at times.

I could speculate on the utlimate answer, but it's a moot point. It will have to be enacted by the general population.

Hagel was correct in his theory that war was the natural state, people only use peace as a time to build up for the next war.

What else it new?

Chas

Ugh. Hegel. Hegel and Nietzsche, I can't stand those guys. Unfortunately it's because I see their assessment of primal human nature as correct. I have a hard time dealing with the knowledge that I'm a part of the insanity.

Dave

[Boreas]

The AFA has been overtaken by militant Christians? Along with the Army and the Marines? Maybe you know something that I don't.

Yes, apparently I do but you've distorted what I said. Christian extremists have indeed gained virtual control of the Air Force Academy. It's pretty well documented. What I said about the Army and Marines is that skinheads/Neo-Nazis are joining in large numbers. That too is documented.

It appears to me that the problem seems to be coming from Islamist radicals at this point. And the far left wing.

Why, because of one guy at Ft. Hood? You consider him to be from "the far left wing"???

Blaming radicalism on the "right wing" is nothing more than using them for a straw man. The right wing has their bad actors, but what exactly have they done?

I gave you a partial list in another post. Here it is again:

There was the guy in Pittsburgh who killed three cops because right wing talkers had convinced him Obama was going to take his guns away.

There was also the guy in Tennessee who shot up a Unitarian church because it was as close as he felt he could come to killing all the liberals and gays on Bernard Goldberg's list of "100 People Who Are Screwing Up America".

There was the right winger in Maine who was building a dirty bomb but whose wife shot and killed him before he could do any harm.

There was the right winger who went on a murderous rampage at the DC Holocaust Museum.

And of course, there was Tim McVeigh who blew up the Federal office building in Oklahoma City so as to provoke an overreaction from the government, thus causing a right wing revolt a la "The Turner Diaries".

I could go on but I won't because I'm sure you get the idea.

Now, I challenge you to give me one single example of something equivalent from the left.

John

[Charles]

Yes, apparently I do but you've distorted what I said. Christian extremists have indeed gained virtual control of the Air Force Academy. It's pretty well documented. What I said about the Army and Marines is that skinheads/Neo-Nazis are joining in large numbers. That too is documented.



Why, because of one guy at Ft. Hood? You consider him to be from "the far left wing"???



I gave you a partial list in another post. Here it is again:

There was the guy in Pittsburgh who killed three cops because right wing talkers had convinced him Obama was going to take his guns away.

There was also the guy in Tennessee who shot up a Unitarian church because it was as close as he felt he could come to killing all the liberals and gays on Bernard Goldberg's list of "100 People Who Are Screwing Up America".

There was the right winger in Maine who was building a dirty bomb but whose wife shot and killed him before he could do any harm.

There was the right winger who went on a murderous rampage at the DC Holocaust Museum.

And of course, there was Tim McVeigh who blew up the Federal office building in Oklahoma City so as to provoke an overreaction from the government, thus causing a right wing revolt a la "The Turner Diaries".

I could go on but I won't because I'm sure you get the idea.

Now, I challenge you to give me one single example of something equivalent from the left.

John

Bill Ayers and his associates?

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Lotta hate in this world, ain't there Dave.

Yup. It's unfortunate. But if we all work toghether maybe we can move things forward and get to a better place. This is America. I think we can do it.

Hagel was correct in his theory that war was the natural state, people only use peace as a time to build up for the next war.

Er, maybe I'm wrong.

[Boreas]

Now, I challenge you to give me one single example of something equivalent from the left.

Bill Ayers and his associates?

Chas

The fact that you had to go back nearly 40 years to find an example speaks volumes. Also, the Weather Underground never killed anyone except a few of their own in a bomb-making accident.

John

[piece-itpete]

I believe these people are pushing the bounds of ethical behavior. There are ways for everyone to speak their minds without fomenting hatred. When a politician or pundit fails to discourage hateful violent speech they are, by default, encouraging it. The old "Well, I didn't tell them to say that." dodge doesn't hold any water. Allowing it to go on at a rally or a meeting without at least asking people to be civil is as good as condoning it, as far as I'm concerned.


Dave, I seem to recall not that long ago when Bush was in office lefties foaming at the mouth 32 times a day.



Christian extremists have indeed gained virtual control of the Air Force Academy. It's pretty well documented. What I said about the Army and Marines is that skinheads/Neo-Nazis are joining in large numbers. That too is documented.



You mean the same militant Christians that have been in control from the start? Here, in the solidly always atheist USA? Never never.

Pete

[Boreas]

You mean the same militant Christians that have been in control from the start? Here, in the solidly always atheist USA? Never never.

Pete

Pete, do some investigation. No, I'm not talking about our "Christian Nation". I'm talking about radical militant & militaristic fundamentalists who have achieved places of influence in the AFA. There is systematic harassment of non-Christian personnel or personnel who aren't quite the right flavor of Christian. This is no secret. Just google it and you'll see. While you're at it, check out the White Supremacist program of infiltrating the military. These groups are actually telling their young members to join up so they can convert the armed forces into a modern day SS.

John

[spasmo55]

Pete, do some investigation. No, I'm not talking about our "Christian Nation". I'm talking about radical militant & militaristic fundamentalists who have achieved places of influence in the AFA. There is systematic harassment of non-Christian personnel or personnel who aren't quite the right flavor of Christian. This is no secret. Just google it and you'll see. While you're at it, check out the White Supremacist program of infiltrating the military. These groups are actually telling their young members to join up so they can convert the armed forces into a modern day SS.

John

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep

Perhaps when you move from Cal to Maryland, you should drive and stop at some military bases along the way. I don't think you can find a more diverse group of people in the country.

The military may be the best place for the little "Whiteys", because when that black kid from Detroit, PR from NYC or "Beaner" from East LA, saves their ass in a fire fight, they will get "re-educated" in a way their parents will not be able to "spin".

Just my thoughts

[Boreas]

Perhaps when you move from Cal to Maryland, you should drive and stop at some military bases along the way. I don't think you can find a more diverse group of people in the country.

I'm a vet, was in the infantry. During my time in the service it was very diverse (because of the draft). I learned a lot about other people then and came away from the experience the liberal you see before you today. ;) The sad part is I know a lot of people who left that experience more confirmed in their hatreds and prejudices than they were when they went in.

Today, in the era of the all volunteer military, there is far less cultural diversity. Yes, all races are represented but not all social classes. You don't really see many people from the upper tiers of society. That's what happens when you make military service an economic choice instead of an obligation.

And I'll bet you didn't try to verify the truth of what I said either.

John

[Charles]

Pete, do some investigation. No, I'm not talking about our "Christian Nation". I'm talking about radical militant & militaristic fundamentalists who have achieved places of influence in the AFA. There is systematic harassment of non-Christian personnel or personnel who aren't quite the right flavor of Christian. This is no secret. Just google it and you'll see. While you're at it, check out the White Supremacist program of infiltrating the military. These groups are actually telling their young members to join up so they can convert the armed forces into a modern day SS.

John

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized. A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

[Charles]

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep

Perhaps when you move from Cal to Maryland, you should drive and stop at some military bases along the way. I don't think you can find a more diverse group of people in the country.

The military may be the best place for the little "Whiteys", because when that black kid from Detroit, PR from NYC or "Beaner" from East LA, saves their ass in a fire fight, they will get "re-educated" in a way their parents will not be able to "spin".

Just my thoughts

After looking at the hash marks on your sleeve, I tend to hold a lot of regard for your opinion on this matter.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized. A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

It shouldn't have been surprising that the Bush administration would select investigators who are sympathetic with the evangelical mission of the Air Force officers to conduct the investigation. For more perspective here is a report from a career Air Force officer, with 30 years of service, complete with citations to other sources. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071107_the_cancer_from_within/

I would not be surprised for members of the armed services to enjoy substantial racial diversity on the bases. The military is now an opportunity for employment for the economically disadvantaged, and one would expect to find diversity among those persons. I suspect, however, that the AFA is not quite as racially diverse as the enlisted population of the military.

Moreover, the issue at the Academy did not seem to be racial discrimination, but religious discrimination, and an open use of an elite academy for proslytising a particular sect of religion that appears to be just as religiously intolerant as the Taliban.

The frightening thing about the radicals in the middle east is that the demand of fundamentalist Islam in connection with control of the forces of the government leaves little room for accomodation of opposing views or for democracy. I would be be heartbroken, and possibly dead, if the same type of fundamentalism were to take over control of the U.S. government.

Regards,

D-Ray

Here is another analysis from a source that could hardly be considered left wing, BNET, which describes itself as "the go to place for management."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_1_123/ai_n16133178/?tag=content;col1

[Boreas]

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

Then you saw that the way the AFA has chosen to deal with the situation is by addressing specific complaints when and as they arise and not by promulgating policies and regulations that put a stop to the practice.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

There's also newer information released by DHS. This was released during the Obama administration so the Right jumped all over it. The trouble is the report was commissioned, and the investigation was conducted, during the Bush Administration.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

How come?

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I'm not comfortable with your blending what I see as two separate subcultures within the military into one. There are the Radical Christanists I spoke of in the AFA, though they exist elsewhere in the military, and distinct from them are the skinheads who are being steered into the military by White Supremacist organizations.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the space between our opinions.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized.

I don't have any use for the ELF. They're way beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned but their tactics are far less violent than those of the Right Wing extremists.

A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Regardless of anything else, a terrorist is a terrorist if his primary goal is to, you know, terrorize society as a whole or a specific segment of it - for political or ideological purposes. Group affiliation of one kind or another, with its capacity for indoctrination, is typical but not necessary. That indoctrination can come from outside sources.

Recently we've seen acts of terrorism from people affiliated with groups, like the man in Kansas who assassinated Dr. Tiller, the man in Pittsburgh who killed the three policemen and the man who shot up the DC Holocaust Museum. Meanwhile, we've seen others who didn't belong to any radical organizations, like the man in Tennessee who killed those people in a Unitarian church who were inspired to commit their acts of terrorism by the writings and speech of people like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Bernard Goldberg and others.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

I don't think Ted Kaczynski had a particular ideology and I don't think he had a desire to terrorize. He just had his list of people he wanted gone.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

Homeland Security sees both as a problem. They know a hell of a lot more about it than I do but I hope you're right.

John

[noonereal]

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. s

:(

OMG, the left plays to fear do they?

Come on, you own this approach lock stock and barrel.

[piece-itpete]

If the best Air Force in the world is Christian (of course it is, like our military has always been), I think that says something about Christians.

Pete

[d-ray657]

If the best Air Force in the world is Christian (of course it is, like our military has always been), I think that says something about Christians.

Pete

Nobody takes issue with the proposition that the people of this country are mainly Christian. The issue is when any government institution demands not only Christianity, but the right flavor of Christianity. When that institution has control of rockets and bombs, their brand of evangalism carries unwarranted influence.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Hmm? If they are the best in the world how come they bombed our allies in Iraq?

[spasmo55]

I'm a vet, was in the infantry. During my time in the service it was very diverse (because of the draft). I learned a lot about other people then and came away from the experience the liberal you see before you today. ;) The sad part is I know a lot of people who left that experience more confirmed in their hatreds and prejudices than they were when they went in.

Today, in the era of the all volunteer military, there is far less cultural diversity. Yes, all races are represented but not all social classes. You don't really see many people from the upper tiers of society. That's what happens when you make military service an economic choice instead of an obligation.

And I'll bet you didn't try to verify the truth of what I said either.

John

Well Brother, (I say that because we both have that 1st Blue Cord stashed away in the closet)

I think what you witnessed was more a result of the on-going civil rights actions and the guilt this country was feeling over Viet-Nam, particularly the disparity in minority numbers serving in that conflict.

My experiances living in 30 man bays or old "woodies", was just the opposite as we were forced to learn to live with each other and function as a team. You had to give respect to be respected and living that close you could not help but learn about each other as men and you soon realized just how "equal" you were.

As far as the upper tiers of society serving, I'm not sure how far up you want to go, but you do remember the process to go to the academies and become a "RING Knocker", yes? Other than an occassional token, I am not sure many come from down here in the blue collar trenches, but I do not know the numbers, only the "Ring Knockers" I served under.

As far as the AFA and the christian right, I find that less threatening to my existence than I do the "Far Left" infiltrating our secondary education system and churning out liberal lawyers and other educated "leaders of tomorrow" by the bucketload, but that is just me I guess.

Verifying what you said, well if I dig enough I can verify it as truth or lie, dependent upon the sources I choose to accept. I prefer to accept it as an opinion of a fellow citizen, and weigh it according to my opinion of your intellect. Whether it is true or not, you beleave it to be true, and if I respect your opinion, then I must give it consideration.

As condescending as that may sound, it is the very reason that I joined this forum, to educate myself through fellow citizens.

[Charles]

Well Brother, (I say that because we both have that 1st Blue Cord stashed away in the closet)

I think what you witnessed was more a result of the on-going civil rights actions and the guilt this country was feeling over Viet-Nam, particularly the disparity in minority numbers serving in that conflict.

My experiances living in 30 man bays or old "woodies", was just the opposite as we were forced to learn to live with each other and function as a team. You had to give respect to be respected and living that close you could not help but learn about each other as men and you soon realized just how "equal" you were.

As far as the upper tiers of society serving, I'm not sure how far up you want to go, but you do remember the process to go to the academies and become a "RING Knocker", yes? Other than an occassional token, I am not sure many come from down here in the blue collar trenches, but I do not know the numbers, only the "Ring Knockers" I served under.

As far as the AFA and the christian right, I find that less threatening to my existence than I do the "Far Left" infiltrating our secondary education system and churning out liberal lawyers and other educated "leaders of tomorrow" by the bucketload, but that is just me I guess.

Verifying what you said, well if I dig enough I can verify it as truth or lie, dependent upon the sources I choose to accept. I prefer to accept it as an opinion of a fellow citizen, and weigh it according to my opinion of your intellect. Whether it is true or not, you beleave it to be true, and if I respect your opinion, then I must give it consideration.

As condescending as that may sound, it is the very reason that I joined this forum, to educate myself through fellow citizens.

Well, 55, have you learned anything new...or simply confirmed your suspicions??????

Chas

[Boreas]

I think what you witnessed was more a result of the on-going civil rights actions and the guilt this country was feeling over Viet-Nam, particularly the disparity in minority numbers serving in that conflict.

I was in during Vietnam so the institutional trauma hadn't really set in yet.

My experiances living in 30 man bays or old "woodies", was just the opposite as we were forced to learn to live with each other and function as a team. You had to give respect to be respected and living that close you could not help but learn about each other as men and you soon realized just how "equal" you were.

I might not have made myself clear. My experience in the military had the effect of confirming me in the belief that we are all brothers and sisters regardless of race or ethnicity. So, our experiences and conclusions were similar.

On the other hand, I know people whose experiences in the military were similar to mine but who came away from the experience with deeply felt racial prejudice. I think that in many cases one's experience in the service can serve to simply reinforce previously held prejudices.

As far as the upper tiers of society serving, I'm not sure how far up you want to go, but you do remember the process to go to the academies and become a "RING Knocker", yes? Other than an occassional token, I am not sure many come from down here in the blue collar trenches, but I do not know the numbers, only the "Ring Knockers" I served under.

I'm not really talking about the "officer class". During the draft all levels of society were represented in the ranks. I lived in a platoon bay with guys who grew up in tenements, mansions and everything in between.

With an all volunteer military you don't get that. Joining the service becomes as much an economic choice as anything else, one made by people with limited options. They see the service as the best option if not a particularly good one.

As far as the AFA and the christian right, I find that less threatening to my existence than I do the "Far Left" infiltrating our secondary education system and churning out liberal lawyers and other educated "leaders of tomorrow" by the bucketload, but that is just me I guess.

Could you expand on that? What's the nature of the threat you see from secondary education?

Verifying what you said, well if I dig enough I can verify it as truth or lie, dependent upon the sources I choose to accept. I prefer to accept it as an opinion of a fellow citizen, and weigh it according to my opinion of your intellect. Whether it is true or not, you beleave it to be true, and if I respect your opinion, then I must give it consideration.

I'd hope you'd do more than just accept what I've written as opinion and try to verify the truth or falsity of it. Otherwise, you're really just sealing yourself off from an opportunity for personal growth and knowledge.

John