Gruuuuuuuber!

[bobabode]

Here's a guy who puts this latest wingnut 'outrage du jour' in perspective.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-what-jon-gruber-said-20141117-column.html#page=1

[donquixote99]

Very well-spoken column. A teaser:

As for the voters’ intelligence, Gruber’s remarks threaten to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. To treat them as important really is stupid.

[bobabode]

If you liked that take, here's Charlie Pierce from Esquire in his own inimitable way. ;)

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/A_Defense_Of_Jonathan_Gruber

"Now, Gruber is the target du jour because of some impolitic remarks he made about how this particular sausage got made. The latest, and silliest one, is that Gruber allegedly kept secret the fact that the initial mechanism for Romneycare in Massachusetts was a bit of legerdemain regarding Medicaid. The Daily Caller, the rickety scaffold (http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/13/obamacare-architect-ted-kennedy-ripped-off-medicaid-video/)on which Tucker Carlson has hung up the bleeding carcass of his career, is thumping the tub vigorously on this one, conveniently eliding the fact that it was Governor Willard Romney who worked with Kennedy to finesse the money in question. And, also, it's not like Gruber's been seriously keeping this a secret. Again, back during the campaign, he was quite open about it with me, two years ago."

[Ike Bana]

Maybe saying it was dumb. But Gruber was right. When it comes to health care, the majority of Americans love their employer sponsored health care and resist EU/Canada style single payer. That makes them either idiots or massively sick narcissists.

[donquixote99]

The majority of Americans are neither idiots nor massively sick narcissists. Calling the majority of Americans hyperbolic names is not productive, and opens you up to the charge of being an elitist liberal who wants to force his will on the majority, which he disrespects.

So I condemn your characterization of 'the majority of Americans,' In my opinion, it's a wrong view and not typical of liberals, who in general have warm regard for their fellow countrymen. Liberals know that the majority of Americans, on the national level, support liberal goals when the alternatives are made clear to them.

[Ike Bana]

The majority of Americans are neither idiots nor massively sick narcissists. Calling the majority of Americans hyperbolic names is not productive, and opens you up to the charge of being an elitist liberal who wants to force his will on the majority, which he disrespects.

So I condemn your characterization of 'the majority of Americans,' In my opinion, it's a wrong view and not typical of liberals, who in general have warm regard for their fellow countrymen. Liberals know that the majority of Americans, on the national level, support liberal goals when the alternatives are made clear to them.

You have considerably more faith in your fellow man than I your donship. Condemn away. The only noble mammals on this planet are the beasts. Humanity is a plague.

[JJIII]

You have considerably more faith in your fellow man than I your donship. Condemn away. The only noble mammals on this planet are the beasts. Humanity is a plague.

"Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre. - Joe Klein "

Class, this is an example of "Irony".;)

[merrylander]

The majority of Americans are neither idiots nor massively sick narcissists. Calling the majority of Americans hyperbolic names is not productive, and opens you up to the charge of being an elitist liberal who wants to force his will on the majority, which he disrespects.

So I condemn your characterization of 'the majority of Americans,' In my opinion, it's a wrong view and not typical of liberals, who in general have warm regard for their fellow countrymen. Liberals know that the majority of Americans, on the national level, support liberal goals when the alternatives are made clear to them.

But DQ what on earth does it take to 'make things clear' to them? I think the original Tea Party shaped the national character. Britain sent troops to quell the Indians (who did not appreciate having their lands stolen). The tea tax was imposed to pay for those troops (among other things). So now we have this national character that wants and wants, but would rather someone else pay for it.;)

[donquixote99]

But DQ what on earth does it take to 'make things clear' to them? I think the original Tea Party shaped the national character. Britain sent troops to quell the Indians (who did not appreciate having their lands stolen). The tea tax was imposed to pay for those troops (among other things). So now we have this national character that wants and wants, but would rather someone else pay for it.;)

I think it's fairer to say that taking the continent away from the Indians shaped that national character, than to say one long-ago tax protest did. And TV commercials shape the national character, by teaching children from an early age that making money is more important than anything, and it's OK to say anything to do it. And ethnic jokes shape the national character, by teaching children what groups are held in disdain.

As to how to make things clear, study FDR. He did a very good job of it.

[Ike Bana]

But DQ what on earth does it take to 'make things clear' to them? I think the original Tea Party shaped the national character. Britain sent troops to quell the Indians (who did not appreciate having their lands stolen). The tea tax was imposed to pay for those troops (among other things). So now we have this national character that wants and wants, but would rather someone else pay for it.;)

They not only want somebody else to pay for it, they're willing to poison the planet and likely leave nothing for their progeny down the road but flooded lowlands and desert where farmland once fed them. But they'll get what they want and get it right now. The only good thing about this is that it doesn't guarantee inevitable catastrophe for the planet, only for humanity. The planet will recover, it's the humans who will destroy themselves. But it'll be great while it lasts.

[Ike Bana]

"Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre. - Joe Klein "

Class, this is an example of "Irony".;)

And as intended.

[BlueStreak]

Maybe saying it was dumb. But Gruber was right. When it comes to health care, the majority of Americans love their employer sponsored health care and resist EU/Canada style single payer. That makes them either idiots or massively sick narcissists.

Bob, I'd have used the word "masochists" in the bolded.;)

They love being wholly dependent on an employer that will fire them, lay them off, change rules to their disadvantage, cut/manipulate benefits with little or no notice at the drop of a hat..........

They think it's somehow "better this way" and that anyone who favors benefits they can't lose is just a pussy, sniffing around for "handouts".

In other words, they're patsies who have been sold a line of BS.

Gruber was right.

Dave

[Oerets]

I had a Republican explain it this way once, Democrats look at humanity and see what can be, the Republicans see what is. The Democrats see humanity in possibilities the Republicans see the failings. My be I'm old fashion but believe we can be better, it is not all about the easy buck.

While I agree that most in this county pay little attention on who really pays for their lifestyle. Just who is the blame when we have a media that only deals in the sound bite and what bleeds leads.

I mentioned in another thread on how the pre paid life insurance for one on medicaid is spent. How no one thought it unappropriated for the Funeral Home gouged, overcharge because of insurance money. Where any extra would go to the government. Everyone else would rather see the Funeral home make a big profit verse pay the Government back. Just like in the Medical services charge, one amount for those with insurance another for the ones without. But in reality everyone is paying in one way or another.

Barney

[donquixote99]

And as intended.

Can't say I really get it. Oh, I see irony, but not irony I'd figure you want to highlight....

Unless...did someone lay that line on you as criticism once, and you've adopted it in a spirit of 'fuck you?'

[Ike Bana]

Can't say I really get it. Oh, I see irony, but not irony I'd figure you want to highlight....

Unless...did someone lay that line on you as criticism once, and you've adopted it in a spirit of 'fuck you?'

Probably my favorite spirit since I got sober.:cool:

[bobabode]

"Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre. - Joe Klein "

Class, this is an example of "Irony".;)

Looks like sarcasm to me but thanks for the bipartisan putsch towards politically correct speech Sister Mary. :rolleyes: ;)

[piece-itpete]

The majority of Americans are neither idiots nor massively sick narcissists. Calling the majority of Americans hyperbolic names is not productive, and opens you up to the charge of being an elitist liberal who wants to force his will on the majority, which he disrespects.
So I condemn your characterization of 'the majority of Americans,' In my opinion, it's a wrong view and not typical of liberals, who in general have warm regard for their fellow countrymen. Liberals know that the majority of Americans, on the national level, support liberal goals when the alternatives are made clear to them.

I'd say it proves it!

Pete

[donquixote99]

I'd say it proves it!

Pete

Proves what? That such is typical among liberals? I'd say I disproved that!

[BlueStreak]

What do you do when you KNOW something HAS to be done and that even your political opposition would likely be doing the same thing if it came down to it on their watch, but very few people, maybe even no one is going to like it?

It's called "leadership".

I recall being told, long ago;

"People love leaders that do as they're told and hate leaders that tell them what has to be done."

Healthcare reform HAD to happen, IMO. And sticking dogmatically to the status quo of bygone years or an unrealistic vision of the past is not leadership, it is catering to those who fear change and it's associated risks, the very people who keep this country falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world.

("Exceptionalism" isn't a sail that keeps the ship moving forward, it's an anchor that hols it steadfastly it in place.)

Dave

[donquixote99]

What do you do when you KNOW something HAS to be done and that even your political opposition would likely be doing the same thing if it came down to it on their watch, but very few people, maybe even no one is going to like it?

It's called "leadership".

I recall being told, long ago;

"People love leaders that do as they're told and hate leaders that tell them what has to be done."

Healthcare reform HAD to happen, IMO. And sticking dogmatically to the status quo of bygone years or an unrealistic vision of the past is not leadership, it is catering to those who fear change and it's associated risks, the very people who keep this country falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world.

("Exceptionalism" isn't a sail that keeps the ship moving forward, it's an anchor that hols it steadfastly it in place.)

Dave

Fear of change is one thing. But Machiavelli identified the big thing back in the 16th century:

It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of it.

[piece-itpete]

Dave I agree, and would add political capitol should be spent not hoarded.

Proves what? That such is typical among liberals? I'd say I disproved that!

No, that the person who actually says it is, like the linked person. I appreciate you mentioning it.

Pete